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Originally Posted by Teretonga
Ive thought about this Richard and have some comments about it.
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Its a good post. I also wanted to be clear that my preference is for the commercial side to not be so closed, but if it is to be closed, then this relegation idea could be a solution to stagnant and poor performing teams.
You call out the FIA/FOM split between regulation and commercial. I actually think this relegation process would have to be owned fully or primarily by the commercial side. I think this could address existing EU rulings. And this could not be imposed during an existing Concorde period. It would have to be agreed upon by any team who signs the next agreement (and some might not, but more on that later). All of this might seem like a bridge too far (and probably is), but I can imagine that with the correct incentives it could happen.
While I talked about simple rules of being dropped if you finished within the bottom three over a period of years. I think there needs to be a objective aspect (the bottom three rule or something similar) and a more subjective rule. The more subjective rule would effectively put FOM in the position of making any final call one way or another. FOM having this power is a risk for abuse by them, but I think they really would only relegate a team if that team was just really stinking it up.
I can imagine the agreement saying that if FOM see a team meeting the relegation threshold AND showing a pervasive level of competitiveness, then they could be dropped if a suitable replacement is available. I think NASCAR has something similar. When I was reading up on how NASCAR does this, I think there was a recent example in which NASCAR could have pushed a team out, but chose not to do so.
Scenario 1... F1 is very healthy with strong competition up and down the entire grid. As I am fond of saying, someone always has to be in last place. And that fact is true regardless of how good that last place team is. Lets say that while meeting the relegation threshold, it actually is a VERY tough battle happening at the bottom end of the field and fans are liking it. In that case, FOM would not replace the team. Basically there is no problem to fix.
Scenario 2... One or more teams really are not particularly good and have been that way for awhile. They are not really bringing anything special to the series. One or more meet the relegation threshold. FOM decides it is best to mix things up and replace a team. Again, there would have to be a suitable replacement waiting. This is fixing the issue of a habitually poorly performing team.
As to suitable replacements, I expect that if this relegation process is put in place and those on the sidelines are watching Scenario 2 starting to play out year after year as a particular team is inching toward likely relegation, then that is when those who are itching to get into F1 are getting their ducks in a row and building up the case for whatever the entry criteria looks like. I would be shocked if nobody is at the FOM doorstep with proposals in hand if a team is just about to be relegated.
If nobody is lined up, then it rolls into the next year. If we have no interest then I guess nothing happens, but history has shown that there seem to be interest these days. And teams could still be bought and sold, so someone interested still has the purchase option vs. waiting for a potential relegation.
You mention chassis sales. I also am a supporter of allowing that.
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Originally Posted by Teretonga
The historic teams?
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As you point out in your post, there will have to be concessions made to what we might just call the historic teams. "Historic Teams" is a friendly way to cover what might be truly historic teams (Ferrari, Williams, McLaren and maybe Renault if you stretch it). You might want to include teams like Mercedes and Red Bull in the "historic" category on purely "historic" reasons, but I really think real reason that you include them into this special category is that they have significant clout and/or commercial weight. They are "Big Gorillas". This might include Red Bull, Mercedes and maybe a future Audi as well. Ferrari is significant enough that it is both historic and a Big Gorilla (probably the biggest). Regardless of how to categorize them, you are going to have a group of first class citizen teams. Of which you will need to throw them a bone to agree to all of this.
I think that is to be a mixture of money and promises. The money could be as you lay out and the promises could be something as simple as exclusion from relegation for the duration of the agreement. Note... one problem with this entire idea is that this future radical Concorde agreement needs to last long enough for relegation to actually be triggered (or could be triggered) before it provides any value.
Being safe from relegation might not be viewed as fair (and I could agree with that), but deals will have to be made. I think one concession that would be asked in return is that if you are a historic team, that you can't play marketing games like VCARB. You rightly call this out in your post. If you get special consideration as being "historic" then you should maintain that identity. Let's say you are Mercedes and you sell to new owners and the new owners don't want (or can't) use the Mercedes name, they get to keep their entry, but they would lose their historic designation and any benefits that come with it.
Lastly, I think if the first class teams were protected, they (and FOM) would actually strongly support this type of process. As I have pointed out, the negative response to Andretti, if applied to someone like Haas... Haas would not be allowed in at all. FOM bought F1 "as is", but is clearly not fully happy with all of the current entrants. I expect privately they would love to replace Haas with someone else if they could.
Another challenge here is that those teams would would not make the cut into the special historic club would be hesitant to sign. Because they basically would have to perform in ways that the historic teams might not be required to do. Either they would have to be given perks of their own or... if FOM was to play hard ball, tell them, fine, you are no longer in F1. So imagine the teams that this might impact...
VCARB, Haas, and Aston Martin. I can't imagine all would refuse to sign. And if one or more were to refuse, it is more likely they would sell to someone who would sign. If someone didn't sign and was to just burn their team to the ground on principle, then FOM could allow a brand new entry to replace them. Again, a minimum buy in for a new team would be high and even buying a team who didn't want to participate in risk of relegation should retain high value if that buy in remains high.
Would they sell at a less than premium price? Maybe. But maybe something could be found to solve the "lost of value" the relegation process and being second class teams might create. I can't solve all problems in one post.
In short, the resulting rules for this would be more complex and perks would have to be handed out. There would be real challenges. Do I think this will happen. While I think its a great idea, I have no illusions it will happen if even discussed. I also am being harsh towards Haas in this post. While Haas is "nominally" an American team, it really isn't. And frankly I think Gene Haas continues to try to do F1 on the cheap and it isn't working.
Richard