Jordan - from pole to dole - can they improve?

[Sodemo]

Back in 1999 Jordan were winning races, now they are lucky if they are within 2 seconds of the front guys.

My view is that it all went wrong when Gascoyne left for Renault.
How can Jordan get back to the front (or midfield even!) can they snatch some top designer?

[ralf fan]

MONEY!

[ParkLife]

The problem wasn't that Gascoyne left for Renault. The problem was that he took half the design team with him!

And problem two is simply a matter of continuity. There hasn't been any! New engines, new drivers, new engineers and no development (due to no money). There's no mystery to it.

[vatuloa]

New Drivers New Chassie and new Engine as well as either the Ferrari, McLaren or William team to run the outfit.

[Sodemo]

The thing is though, money doesn't just disappear, the money that they earned from the 1999 campaign must have gone somewhere...

The money they "had" must have been spent on something, did they design a load of parts that were no good, was it the legal fees with Frentzen?

Winning teams don't go bust for no reason, why have their backers left?

[ljakse]

Eddie had few of mistakes of his one (suing Vodafone for one) that made him lose money, and I guess the changes (enigine, drivers, staff) didn't help - just made it worse. Money itself can't put them back. If that's the case, Toyota would have been 2 times WCC by now.

[Mark Webber]

can they improve . I doubt it

[Super Tourer]

The big problem for EJ is that without the pure fluke of a win in Brazil, the team would only have scored 3 points this year.

This indicates the true pace of the car, more worrying is that this is with the new points system which was supposed to benefit teams like Jordan.

The car has been both slow, unreliable and suffered some worrying component failure's that caused accidents which added to their costs.

The solution is tricky. Unless sponsorship deals improve markedly, Jordan will be looking at essentially a pay driver line up. Their major asset, Fizzi, has left and you can only wonder how the team will fare without his pace to wring the best out of the car.

Gary Anderson, is heading into semi-retirement - so who will be designing the car? It's fair to say they need a new car from the ground up, as this years car was so bad they can't even use a re-worked version of it. This takes time, money and more importantly, someone to design it.

To answer where it's gone wrong is difficult, a combination of reasons.

1. The costs in F1 have risen substantially since 1999, I believe EJ was able to finish 3rd on the WDCC on less money than Minardi spend on F1 today.

2. Engine partnerships not working well - both the Peugeot and Honda engine deals went sour, you need a long term, consistent partnership to reach the top in F1.

3. Sponsorship deals falling over - think back to the cars of 1999 and some of the names on them - barely any remain today. Without manufacturer backing the next season is only as good as the funding you have.

4. Some management decisions - firing HHF on the eve of the German GP, when you have a German title sponsor was strange. The Vodafone court case - why? The Ford 'works deal' announcement - why? All this leads to the impression the eye is not on the ball.

However, EJ has some new partners this year, and we have yet to see how they view F1 - a long term play, new investment in addition to their share purchase, or simply picking up a bargain and waiting for another buyer to come along?

All will pan out, but Jordan certainly need to be earlier with producing their 2004 car and driver line up than they were this year, or it might be more of the same.

[Red]

Hmm, not sure if indeed Jordan won races in 1999 or Ferrari and McLaren lost them. Anyway, that was a weird season.

[GTRMagic]

They will be ok next year if the B&H dollars are retained, where they are after the ciggies are banned is anyones guess...

[jet]

They need a lot more money to improve next year or else they still have to battle with Minardi and that is not the place where the Jordans belong.So let's hope they close a very good sponsor deal.And have a strong drivers line-up for next year one of them have to bring also a big bag with money in it.

[The Moon Monkey]

word has it that EJ has offered a drive to Frentzen for next season!!!!!

[RWC]

Jordan overspent bigtime back in 1999/2000 and have been struggling with debt ever since.
As a very wise f1 journalist(wow,there is such a thing??) said:"Jordan were never going to make the jump to the front of the grid,they had delusions of grandeur-It was mostly chance,a reasonable car and MICHAEL BEING OUT OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP that got them their success in '99"

[JR Ewing]

Originally posted by RWC
Jordan overspent bigtime back in 1999/2000 and have been struggling with debt ever since.

Yeah, right! I think you mean big budgets arrived and were paid out to shareholders...

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Red
Hmm, not sure if indeed Jordan won races in 1999 or Ferrari and McLaren lost them. Anyway, that was a weird season.

But, to win races now, they need Ferrari, Mclaren, Williams, Renault, Jaguar, Toyota, BAR and Sauber to lose them.

In any case, Jordan had genuine pace in 1999. Top 6 grid positions were reglar, including pole at the Nurburgring (slightly weather-affected) and front-rows at Hockenheim and Monza. Often, poor starts cost them better results. And had Damon been on top motivation, they could've done even better.

[The Moon Monkey]

yes - i think it is a little unfair to suggest their '99 performances were "lucky" - they were still quicker than the Williams team all season and were almost always in the top 3 rows of the grid in qualifying. Even in 2000, Jordan Mugen was the only team outside of McLaren and Ferrari to get on the front row in qualifying (Trulli at Monaco, Frentzen at Silverstone) and in 2001, Trulli was best of the rest (e.g. after McLaren, Ferrari and Williams) almost every race in qualifying. With Jordan, since the beginning of 2000, reliability has been dreadful. However, in 2002 and 2003 they have fallen back significantly (but Jordan still showed more pace in 2002 than similarly powered BAR).

I think there is a high degree of "schadenfreude" enjoyed by people at Jordan's relative demise. I would rather think that the team got up there with the big boys in 1999 on a relatively small budget through a fairly decent car, very good reliability and good non-works engine and a re-motivated Frentzen, got ambitious in 2000/2001 but suffered with reliability (and poor decision making e.g. sacking HHF) and are now paying the price.

I must admit that I am concerned about the future of the team.

[Knowlesy]

Originally posted by The Monster
.......now they are lucky if they are within 2 seconds of the front guys.

Crikey, don't flatter them!

[Bobie]

Rick Gorne joined Jordan earlier this year I believe, whatis he doing to help Jordan? He set up BAR with Craig Pollock and has an interesting history or doing well with deals.

Anyone have any ideas?

[Ej10]

I think people are being a bit harsh.

If you look at the qualifying of the team at the start of the year until mid season when the other guys got new cars basically jordan were well able to keep up with the rest. they were 1 to 1.5 seconds(fissi) off the pacesetters. but is is obvious why jordan have done so poorly this year. Money and fuel rigs,poor tyres and a poor engine from cossie.

Jordan have lost about ten to 15 points all seson thanks to the fuel rigs. Its unbelievale. Fissi lost points in silverstone, USA, barcelona, and firman at malaysia and barcelona and they had other problems with fuel rigs also,Japan included.

The team just had no money. the car was not too bad and was just as fast as bar, jag, toyota, sauber and all that mid feild group untill about silverstone. The car was virtually unchanged all year with a few mods to the front wing all year.hopefully that will change for 2004. Also the car had poor reliability but money is needed to fix these things and they had none.

The bridgstones were an embarressment this year. if there was a gap betwen the two tyre companys of a second i wouldnt be suprised. what ever the problem was the car would run great on friday and as there was more rubber laid on the track the cars handling would get worse.

And finally cossie.In the contract Ej signed with the engine manufacturer the team were to get 6 engine upgrades throughout the year. But they didnt. they got one and they had to revert back to the older one as the new one kept blowing up. cosworths excuse was that they were focusing on the new engine as the new one engine rule was starting next year.

But all in all the team faired quite well and even though many predicted the fall of the team during the winter or during the season team jordan are still here, still battlingand thanks to the new investment will be here for many years to come.

in response to some people on the board

monster"The thing is though, money doesn't just disappear, the money that they earned from the 1999 campaign must have gone somewhere..."

the team with the money they had in 1999 have built a major new extension onto the factory in 2001.also they took on a lot of people during these years.also they have updated their wind tunnel and im sure have invested much dosh in other things as well.People fail to remember that over the past two years the cost of competing in f1 over the past years has doubled.

RWC"Jordan overspent bigtime back in 1999/2000 and have been struggling with debt ever since.
As a very wise f1 journalist(wow,there is such a thing??) said:"Jordan were never going to make the jump to the front of the grid,they had delusions of grandeur-It was mostly chance,a reasonable car and MICHAEL BEING OUT OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP that got them their success in '99"

jordan do not owe any bank or anyone anything. they have no loans and stuck to the budget they have had all through the years. so get your facts straight.

[Knowlesy]

The car was a bucking, sliding, unwieldy pig!

[JR Ewing]

Originally posted by Ej10
jordan do not owe any bank or anyone anything. they have no loans and stuck to the budget they have had all through the years

i'm assuming this is a tongue-in-cheek joke, right?

[Brandy_snap]

Originally posted by The Moon Monkey
word has it that EJ has offered a drive to Frentzen for next season!!!!!

Maybe thats the key, if they bring back Frentzen, they might get wins again

However if I was Frentzen i wouldn't trust EJ at all... I still haven't got over the way he was treated before his home race!

[DriverT]

Yeahhhh right. Bring back Frentzen, my ****.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Ej10
I think people are being a bit harsh.

If you look at the qualifying of the team at the start of the year until mid season when the other guys got new cars basically jordan were well able to keep up with the rest. they were 1 to 1.5 seconds(fissi) off the pacesetters. but is is obvious why jordan have done so poorly this year. Money and fuel rigs,poor tyres and a poor engine from cossie.

Jordan have lost about ten to 15 points all seson thanks to the fuel rigs. Its unbelievale. Fissi lost points in silverstone, USA, barcelona, and firman at malaysia and barcelona and they had other problems with fuel rigs also,Japan included.

The team just had no money. the car was not too bad and was just as fast as bar, jag, toyota, sauber and all that mid feild group untill about silverstone. The car was virtually unchanged all year with a few mods to the front wing all year.hopefully that will change for 2004. Also the car had poor reliability but money is needed to fix these things and they had none.

The bridgstones were an embarressment this year. if there was a gap betwen the two tyre companys of a second i wouldnt be suprised. what ever the problem was the car would run great on friday and as there was more rubber laid on the track the cars handling would get worse.

And finally cossie.In the contract Ej signed with the engine manufacturer the team were to get 6 engine upgrades throughout the year. But they didnt. they got one and they had to revert back to the older one as the new one kept blowing up. cosworths excuse was that they were focusing on the new engine as the new one engine rule was starting next year.

But all in all the team faired quite well and even though many predicted the fall of the team during the winter or during the season team jordan are still here, still battlingand thanks to the new investment will be here for many years to come.

in response to some people on the board

monster"The thing is though, money doesn't just disappear, the money that they earned from the 1999 campaign must have gone somewhere..."

the team with the money they had in 1999 have built a major new extension onto the factory in 2001.also they took on a lot of people during these years.also they have updated their wind tunnel and im sure have invested much dosh in other things as well.People fail to remember that over the past two years the cost of competing in f1 over the past years has doubled.

RWC"Jordan overspent bigtime back in 1999/2000 and have been struggling with debt ever since.
As a very wise f1 journalist(wow,there is such a thing??) said:"Jordan were never going to make the jump to the front of the grid,they had delusions of grandeur-It was mostly chance,a reasonable car and MICHAEL BEING OUT OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP that got them their success in '99"

jordan do not owe any bank or anyone anything. they have no loans and stuck to the budget they have had all through the years. so get your facts straight.

Some blinkered fanboy drivel there.

BAR and Sauber sued the same Bridgestone tyres, yet still consistantly trounced Jordan. The early season qualifying sessions saw far more ow-fuel runs from smaller teams, and msitakes from top drivers, which allowed better qualifying efforts from the minnows.

Michael being out of the championship might've kept tehir championship hopes alive for longer, but it didn't significantly improve their championship position. Even with Micahel's presence, they'd've finished 4th at worst with Frentzen in 1999 - a pretty big difference from the last 2 years.

A lot of teams have had fuel rig problems this year. I agree that the amount of problems ia disgrace consdiering how old the hardware is, but to suggest that Jordan would've amassed those 10-15 points is ridiculous. They weren't magically on the pace on any of thsoe days.

[The Moon Monkey]

Any idea who their technical director will be now Gary Anderson is in "semi-retirement"?