Gravel Traps, is there a better way?

[grichie87]

They seam to just cause more problems than they cure, just dangerous and cheap. Often turn a small off into a roll and big crash, or damage the engine

[mig]

I have always thought that a large tarmac run off area would be better with strict drive through penaltys for people using them to gain an advantage.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by mig

I have always thought that a large tarmac run off area would be better with strict drive through penaltys for people using them to gain an advantage.

Except someone has to police those penalties and tarmac is useless unless you've got all your wheels and fully functioning brakes. Not that I'm a massive fan of gravel, other than it's an improvement over catch fencing. On the whole I'm of the opinion it's the best option we've got at the moment.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by mig

I have always thought that a large tarmac run off area would be better with strict drive through penaltys for people using them to gain an advantage.

Until you have a stuck throttle or brake failure......then your fooked!

Ive seen plenty of huge crashes and rolls where there has been Tarmac or grass runoff and without a gravel trap in sight....

I've often thought of using water traps to slow down cars rather than gravel traps....although that idea would have complications lol....

[kipper]

I think one reason why large run off areas could not replace all gravel traps is that in some locations there isn't the room or the topography doesn't allow it (e.g. Devils Elbow at Mallory).

[grichie87]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Except someone has to police those penalties and tarmac is useless unless you've got all your wheels and fully functioning brakes. Not that I'm a massive fan of gravel, other than it's an improvement over catch fencing. On the whole I'm of the opinion it's the best option we've got at the moment.

With all the tech in motorsport is gravel the best?

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by grichie87

With all the tech in motorsport is gravel the best?

It certainly does have its place, like tyre walls, concrete barriers, SAFER barriers and so on.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by kipper

I think one reason why large run off areas could not replace all gravel traps is that in some locations there isn't the room or the topography doesn't allow it (e.g. Devils Elbow at Mallory).

But does the gravel there actually do anything? The strip of gravel at Gerrards seems to make you skim over the top so you hit the tyre wall faster.
If you take Paddock at Brands for instance, the first bit does nothing and if you go in further round you either sink up to your doors or roll, unless you're uncle Eric in my car in which case you can drive the entire length from top to bottom and carry on racing.

[Al Weyman]

and no doubt spill a load of gravel on the track and shatter everyone elses windscreens and headlights. I counted about 8 or 9 damaged in one of our races when this happened at paddock.

[wolfhound]

They are also a pain in the butt to remove a car from as well, with grass or tarmac it is much easier to move a stricken car without the need of a tow truck.

I have seen some high speed impacts with well built multi layer tyre walls and they can do an excellent job of slowing a car down when the gravel has failed to slow a car sufficiently.

However if you hit a tyre wall you will normally have a repair bill, land in a gravel trap and you need a JCB to dig it all out.

One great way of slowing cars down without doing much damage is a wall built of soft snow, but the track needs to be somewhere very cold for this to work.

[Paul D]

I'm not really in favour of these large tarmac run-off areas seen at places like Silverstone. In my opinion, it sanitises the track somewhat, and I've always thought that, when circuit racing, getting it wrong and going off the track should carry with it a bigger penalty than simply finding yourself on another piece of tarmac!

Circuits like Cadwell sort out the men from the boys, because you know that if you get it wrong there, there's a good chance it's gonna hurt - financially at least! That doesn't necessarily mean that I think all tracks should have walls just inches from the circuit edge - of course not. But equally, I'm not interested in racing on circuits where the only difference between being 'on track' and 'off track' is denoted by which side of a white line I find myself!

Gravel doesn't always work, of course, and yes, it is a pain in the ar*e to remove once you've had a visit into it - should give us all more incentive to stay on track and not visit it too often!

I do, however, agree that in this technological age, it's hard to believe that one of the most effective ways to decelerate and stop an out of control car is still by virtue of a pile of scrap tyres banded together!

Of course, scrap tyres are cheap - giant airbags and other more advanced solutions cost money...

[grichie87]

Originally Posted by Paul D

I'm not really in favour of these large tarmac run-off areas seen at places like Silverstone. In my opinion, it sanitises the track somewhat, and I've always thought that, when circuit racing, getting it wrong and going off the track should carry with it a bigger penalty than simply finding yourself on another piece of tarmac!

Circuits like Cadwell sort out the men from the boys, because you know that if you get it wrong there, there's a good chance it's gonna hurt - financially at least! That doesn't necessarily mean that I think all tracks should have walls just inches from the circuit edge - of course not. But equally, I'm not interested in racing on circuits where the only difference between being 'on track' and 'off track' is denoted by which side of a white line I find myself!

Gravel doesn't always work, of course, and yes, it is a pain in the ar*e to remove once you've had a visit into it - should give us all more incentive to stay on track and not visit it too often!

I do, however, agree that in this technological age, it's hard to believe that one of the most effective ways to decelerate and stop an out of control car is still by virtue of a pile of scrap tyres banded together!

Of course, scrap tyres are cheap - giant airbags and other more advanced solutions cost money...

Spose big spikes round the outside would slow everyone down, however bit painfull. Or maybe a moat with sharks. Gravel is no good at its job causes the marshall grief more run off before gravel is better, they have moved the gravel back at druids seams better

[TWRv12]

Mentioned this before, but if there was a cheap version of Engineered materials arrestor system
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122684

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...m?newsId=11961

It would be better than gravel or tarmac

[Adam43]

I refrained from posting the simple sarcastic "well don't go in it", but I do have time for a post like Paul D's, consideration has gone into it and it isn't just a one liner.

However a lot of us are just playing at this motorsport lark and it is nice if people look after us. There is a balance to strike between finding the best solution, being practical about it and realising that you remove some element of the sport if it is too easy (I don't mean mistakes should be punished by injury).

I can't think of a circuit I am unhappy about its gravel traps.

Ideally it would be tarmac, as this slows the car down more when considering normal mistakes, with appropriately laid and positioned gravel for the mechanical failures where tarmac doesn't work. Clearly not always possible and comprimises have to be made or we lose the places we like to play.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by grichie87

Or maybe a moat with sharks.

[Al Weyman]

Also the mistake and subsequent effect on the wallet etc may not have been a mistake but a mechanical failure or puncture so bit hard to suggest this goes punished.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Paul D

I'm not really in favour of these large tarmac run-off areas seen at places like Silverstone. In my opinion, it sanitises the track somewhat, and I've always thought that, when circuit racing, getting it wrong and going off the track should carry with it a bigger penalty than simply finding yourself on another piece of tarmac!

Circuits like Cadwell sort out the men from the boys, because you know that if you get it wrong there, there's a good chance it's gonna hurt - financially at least! That doesn't necessarily mean that I think all tracks should have walls just inches from the circuit edge - of course not. But equally, I'm not interested in racing on circuits where the only difference between being 'on track' and 'off track' is denoted by which side of a white line I find myself!

Originally Posted by Adam43

I refrained from posting the simple sarcastic "well don't go in it", but I do have time for a post like Paul D's, consideration has gone into it and it isn't just a one liner.

If you want to take the purist attitude about sorting men from boys etc then maybe we should have armco or earth banks up to the edge of the tracks, it works at Lydden OK. The major problem now with gravel is that once someone is stuck in it the rest of us pay in lost racing laps as all recovery is now done under safety car. So It's not just those that make the mistake but the rest of us that are punished.

[Adam43]

That is a good point. Losing a million racing laps because of someone in a gravel trap is annoying. Even just a yellow on that corner impacts on the race enjoyment.

[Bob Gray]

Originally Posted by grichie87

With all the tech in motorsport is gravel the best?

You could always develope a magnetic force field so errant cars just bounce back into the chasing pack instead of going off

[Tim Falce]

That doesn't help the fibre glass cars though

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

If you want to take the purist attitude about sorting men from boys etc then maybe we should have armco or earth banks up to the edge of the tracks, it works at Lydden OK. The major problem now with gravel is that once someone is stuck in it the rest of us pay in lost racing laps as all recovery is now done under safety car. So It's not just those that make the mistake but the rest of us that are punished.

My problem with gravel traps is the size of them and their close proximetry to the track.
Take "The Beach" at Paddock Hill bend, Brands Hatch. It has left drivers with no margin for error and, as you say Tim, usually results in a Red Flag (club meetings) or Safety Car if someone ends up in there. It, IMO, has also caused may accidents to become worse, as drivers are trying to correct their error as they go around the bend, and hit the gravel sideways.
I understand what Wooley, the voice of experience, is saying, but surely, we have to give drivers a chance, as they have done at Druids (certainly let Matt Jackson get away without his car being thumped) and Brooklands at Silverstone.
Gravel traps also cause added danger for marshals, as it is far more difficult to avoid inpending danger when your standing in gravel.
I have nothing against the reason for them being therer, but keep them away from the edge of the track and keep the size appropriate.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

The major problem now with gravel is that once someone is stuck in it the rest of us pay in lost racing laps as all recovery is now done under safety car. So It's not just those that make the mistake but the rest of us that are punished.

Good point Tim, and I agree. I spun off into the gravel at Gerrards last year and had to be dragged out under the safety car - and yes, I did feel a bit guilty for those lost laps for everyone else. It was me that ended up in the gravel, everyone else doesn't deserve to penalised as a result.

What would have happened in the same situation before the gravel was there? I can't say for sure, other than to say I'd have travelled a lot further before coming to a stop I reckon. I'm not defending all gravel traps here by the way, just presenting my case.

But what I really wouldn't want to see is a situation where circuits simply become vast expanses of tarmac with the 'circuit' simply 'painted on' with white lines. To my mind, a race track should be a ribbon of tarmac with a very obvious difference between what is track and what isn't.

How to achieve that whilst also keeping things relatively safe and avoiding interruptions to racing when it does go wrong, I don't really know!

What's the stuff they use that's like some sort of a grid that grass grows through? It's in use at Oulton, on the outside of Old Hall and maybe Druids. It looks like grass more or less, but offers more consistent grip, but not so much grip that you can simply keep your foot in as if you were still on track. So you do have to lift, and are therefore penalised for your mistake, if you end up out there on it, but it offers a chance of stopping before you hit something solid if you happen to be spinning onto it, or running out of brakes.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by White flag man

My problem with gravel traps is the size of them and their close proximetry to the track.
Take "The Beach" at Paddock Hill bend, Brands Hatch. It has left drivers with no margin for error.

That's not strictly true as there is a huge kerb that you can fit your whole car on, the white line (dictating the edge of the track) is, obviously, before you even reach the kerb. The problem is that a lot of drivers try and push the limits too much.

As a single-seater driver, gravel traps are fantastic. Yes, they fill the whole car with kitty litter (it even jammed our flywheel once) but I'd rather have to vacuum the car out a bit than be faced with a repair bill for wishbones, pushrods, uprights, wheels.

I do understand though, that for saloon guys, if you enter the gravel sideways you can often end up rolling and causing more damage to the car.

Personally, I don't like tarmac run offs. They don't penalise the driver for making a mistake and are often poorly policed (look at Copse at Silverstone). It just becomes another piece of track for the drivers to be exploited. Yes, the CoC's/observers should report/black flag drivers but they more often than not don't.

There is no perfect way of stopping a spinning/crashing car. But, I think gravel is probably the best option at the moment. Tarmac may work if they is a large strip of grass between the track and the run off. That way it would stop people trying to exploit the 'extra' track whilst still providing a surface on which people can try and stop their cars if they spin. As has been said though, tarmac certainly doesn't help if you have no brakes/no control.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

That's not strictly true as there is a huge kerb that you can fit your whole car on, the white line (dictating the edge of the track) is, obviously, before you even reach the kerb. The problem is that a lot of drivers try and push the limits too much.

As a single-seater driver, gravel traps are fantastic. Yes, they fill the whole car with kitty litter (it even jammed our flywheel once) but I'd rather have to vacuum the car out a bit than be faced with a repair bill for wishbones, pushrods, uprights, wheels.

I do understand though, that for saloon guys, if you enter the gravel sideways you can often end up rolling and causing more damage to the car.

Personally, I don't like tarmac run offs. They don't penalise the driver for making a mistake and are often poorly policed (look at Copse at Silverstone). It just becomes another piece of track for the drivers to be exploited. Yes, the CoC's/observers should report/black flag drivers but they more often than not don't.

There is no perfect way of stopping a spinning/crashing car. But, I think gravel is probably the best option at the moment. Tarmac may work if they is a large strip of grass between the track and the run off. That way it would stop people trying to exploit the 'extra' track whilst still providing a surface on which people can try and stop their cars if they spin. As has been said though, tarmac certainly doesn't help if you have no brakes/no control.

Some very good points, especially about single seaters. Not so sure if the kerb is that huge, if you had overcooked your entry and your car was heading towards the gravel, with the front of your car pointing towards the inside of the circuit.
Like the point about large grass strips, then tarmac. How about, after the tarmac, deeper, softer gravel. It would give you time to stop before the gravel and then, hopefully, the gravel would finally stop you hitting the tyre wall/armco.
I wouldn't help in extreme cases like throttles sticking, but I've seen cars clear the Paddock Hill gravel trap in such cases.

[Adam43]

Here are some pictures of Paddock Hill http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009...round-one.aspx