|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
28 May 2007, 17:34 (Ref:1923047) | #1 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2
|
Renault F1 engine
on youtube, i saw a renault f1 engine running. it appeared to have something injected into the top of the air horns as it was running. does anyone know what this is? it looks like water injection. is their an advantage to injecting water there?
thanks, wes |
||
|
28 May 2007, 19:25 (Ref:1923164) | #2 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,714
|
It's fuel.
|
|
|
29 May 2007, 16:23 (Ref:1923913) | #3 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,164
|
I think it's fuel too, but if it is water then it is a form of charge cooling (i.e. the high specific heat of water is used to lower the combustion temperatures, reduce knocking, and hence allow the use of more aggressive ignition timing or compression ratios. But I think that is outlawed in F1.
|
||
__________________
Dallara F307 Toyota, MSV F3 Cup - Class and Team Champion 2012 Monoposto Champion 2008, 2010 & 2011. |
31 May 2007, 05:21 (Ref:1925127) | #4 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,914
|
It is fuel.
Tristencliffe, Even back in the Turbo days when they had "water injection" they didn't spray water straight in, it was emulsified within the fuel |
||
__________________
Contrary to popular opinion, I do have mechanical sympathy, I always feel sorry for the cars I drive. |
31 May 2007, 09:51 (Ref:1925298) | #5 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,164
|
Of course, but spraying the water at the top of the trumpets would allow it to emulsify on the way to the cylinder. But direct water injection isn't unheard off either.
|
||
__________________
Dallara F307 Toyota, MSV F3 Cup - Class and Team Champion 2012 Monoposto Champion 2008, 2010 & 2011. |
3 Jun 2007, 15:47 (Ref:1927673) | #6 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,707
|
Can we see the link!
Fairly sure its fuel, the injectors spray constantly directly into the inlet trumpets as the valve timings are so rapid. |
||
__________________
"If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now" Douglas Adams. 1952-2001 |
4 Jun 2007, 06:24 (Ref:1928090) | #7 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,914
|
No, not at all un heard of, I have people using it in my class, (it is sometimes called "Chemical intercooling") However, compared to having water emulsified it is a really crude way to do it, and the F1 guys don't do anything in a crude manner!
(except for maybe their treatment of the fans!) |
||
__________________
Contrary to popular opinion, I do have mechanical sympathy, I always feel sorry for the cars I drive. |
5 Jun 2007, 04:07 (Ref:1928998) | #8 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2
|
I should have posted the video. if you go on youtube and type in renault f1 engine in the search feature, you will see two videos of this engine. one with just the engine running and the other running on a dyno symulating a track run. on both, it seems like they are spraying a liquid into the top of the stacks. wouldn't think it was fuel. i was guessing it was water. but why? to what advantage? and when? when you accelerate? (wish i could spell!) look over the video if you get a chance, i am curious.
thanks. wes |
||
|
5 Jun 2007, 05:39 (Ref:1929022) | #9 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,133
|
You'll find that it's fuel going in. They get a better air/fuel mix.
As for mixing in water, thats a new to me and a couple engine builders I know. The only case where I has seen water used was when it was sprade on a turbo. |
||
|
6 Jun 2007, 05:08 (Ref:1929892) | #10 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,914
|
Water injection has been around since the 1930's, an engineer called Ricardo developed the idea, he is a bit famous. Most pre-jet high performance aircraft use water injection. It is a very efficient way to combat detonation as it slows the combustion process (as well as cooling the charge), water is after all, a retardant!
It essentially works in two ways. Water has a very high specific heat rating (it can absorb lots of energy while only slowly increasing in temperature) and so the intake air is initially cooled. Next, the small drops of water start to evaporate. Water has a very high latent heat of evaporation (its change of state absorbs a lot of heat) and so the intake air charge is cooled still further. It is more popular in Turbo/supercharged engines because they run with higher inlet tempretures, but it works in NA, especially when there are high combustion pressures, Petrol or Diesel, it doesn’t matter. Don't expect a 10:1 CR NA motor to see real benefits beyond a little more advance, but if you want a 15:1 Petrol NA, you will detonate without it! With Turbos you need to inject the water AFTER the compressor or you will destroy the compressor wheel, with (PD type) superchargers it is common to inject it before because it increases efficiency, though there are limits to this. So some inject at multiple points. |
||
__________________
Contrary to popular opinion, I do have mechanical sympathy, I always feel sorry for the cars I drive. |
29 Jun 2007, 19:48 (Ref:1949980) | #11 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 419
|
Very common in WW II, with conventional piston engined aircraft in "Boost" condition for take-off: e.g. with a heavy bomb load.
Increasingly being used today. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...njection&meta= |
||
|
12 Jul 2007, 07:47 (Ref:1961295) | #12 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,677
|
Im pretty certain it would be fuel, seen a tricked out Honda B16 in an EG civic that ran 2 injectors per cylinder. 4 in the more conventional possition along the thottle bodies/inlet manifold. Another 4 above each of the ITB aiming into the trumpet. could this be similar ?
|
||
__________________
The race track and the human body, both born of the earth, drive to be one with the earth, and through the earth one with the car, drive to the undiminished dream, single moments of pleasure, an eternity of memories. |
13 Jul 2007, 04:21 (Ref:1962100) | #13 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,618
|
its definitely Fuel, those are fuel injectors spraying from a fuel rail. The Water injection systems that I have seen don't have the solenoid style setup that the fuel injectors do.
|
||
__________________
I refuse to let fact get in the way of my opinion |
14 Jul 2007, 00:08 (Ref:1962826) | #14 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 30
|
Yes, enough speculation, it absolutely, definitely, for sure is fuel.
|
||
|
14 Jul 2007, 22:02 (Ref:1963292) | #15 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,714
|
Quote:
|
||
|
15 Jul 2007, 06:15 (Ref:1963417) | #16 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,479
|
I think by majority vote, it's fuel being injected.
Question answered, thread closed. |
||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Renault F3 Engine | Monkey Head | National & International Single Seaters | 11 | 12 Mar 2004 10:56 |
How about the Renault Engine? | Valve Bounce | Formula One | 10 | 29 May 2001 11:44 |
renault engine? | canadianfan | Formula One | 8 | 19 Apr 2001 04:18 |
Renault engine | IgBar | Formula One | 1 | 10 Nov 2000 05:50 |
Minardi to get Renault Engine | Valve Bounce | Formula One | 14 | 6 Aug 2000 00:43 |