ACO costs = Grand Am gain?

[DanJR1]

just a pondering but will ACO series related costs push more competitors into grand am?

[juicy sushi]

i can't see how. it's no cheaper to run there competitively than it would be to run an LMP or GT in the ALMS, plus there's absolutely no fan support or media support, so you've got very little to offer sponsors...

[Hugewally]

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...d=525&Itemid=1

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...d=526&Itemid=1

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...d=527&Itemid=1

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

i can't see how. it's no cheaper to run there competitively than it would be to run an LMP or GT in the ALMS, plus there's absolutely no fan support or media support, so you've got very little to offer sponsors...

There are some points where GA is cheaper or more privateer-friendly,
- steel brakes
- very limited testing
- tires: limited number of sets per weekend and same tire for all.

Media support isn't that bad for GA, either:
The start of the last two 24hrs at Daytona on FOX got ratings of .9, whereas ALMS usually gets between .4 and .7 on network television,
ALMS however has a lot more network TV-time.
From what I've heard, there's not much difference between the ALMS' and Grand Am's ratings on Speed TV.

Alexa.com-ratings for Grand-Am.com and americanlemans.com and indycar.com


So Indycar kills both ALMS and Grand Am, but the two sportscar-series are not that far apart, while the Rolex24 generates much more interest among the members of Alexa's database than Sebring or PLM.
Le Mans and the 24hours at the Ring however dwarf the Rolex24.

[Adam43]

Changing series cost money (new cars, etc...). So is difficult to do.

Another aspect that came out of the F1 to sportscar thread was a feeling that all series lose out if money is short. Maybe if you have a presence in more than one series you stop the expensive one? Or the one with the worse return for costs. However if you only have a presence in one, changing is difficult.

[Speed-King]

Another thought:
If the current economic crisis turns into a full-blown multi-year depression, Grand Am could always bring back the SGS-class and let Koni Challenge GS-cars with less ballast, the GA-spec-wing and Pirellis run in the Rolex series.
IMSA did that in the early nineties, when the Kelly American Challenge cars were renamed GTO and ran with the GTS and GTU cars.

[Fogelhund]

Alexa.com is an absolutely meaningless measuring device.

According to teams that run, or have run in both series, operating costs between the two series are almost the same. Equipment costs are obviously more expensive in the ALMS.

[zac510]

My first impression would be that the ALMS has much more international coverage than Grand Am. I can only think that this would influence your team's status and the type for sponsors, so you should try and make this work to your advantage.

But I'm a sportscar enthusiast so I pay a disproportionate amount of attention to the ALMS than other American motorsports and am probably not a good example to read from!

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by zac510

My first impression would be that the ALMS has much more international coverage than Grand Am.

Well, here in Germany the ALMS does occasionally appear in the sports section of the local newspaper. Grand-Am never has, so you might be correct there.

However, most US racing efforts are sponsored by American companies who probably couldn't care less about international marketing. I still don't think that Grand-Am would be more attractive than the ALMS though. Didn't the bear expect the Daytona grid to be about half of last year's?

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

There are some points where GA is cheaper or more privateer-friendly,
- steel brakes
- very limited testing
- tires: limited number of sets per weekend and same tire for all.

Media support isn't that bad for GA, either:
The start of the last two 24hrs at Daytona on FOX got ratings of .9, whereas ALMS usually gets between .4 and .7 on network television,
ALMS however has a lot more network TV-time.
From what I've heard, there's not much difference between the ALMS' and Grand Am's ratings on Speed TV.

Alexa.com-ratings for Grand-Am.com and americanlemans.com and indycar.com


So Indycar kills both ALMS and Grand Am, but the two sportscar-series are not that far apart, while the Rolex24 generates much more interest among the members of Alexa's database than Sebring or PLM.
Le Mans and the 24hours at the Ring however dwarf the Rolex24.

i don't know who alexa are, and don't know their methadology, however, even judging by them, the ratings are less than half the ALMS for every round other than daytona. there is also no media attention on sports shows, or from the press to the series. there are also incredibly small crowds. it simply is not popular among race fans. and gets no attention from the press...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

i don't know who alexa are, and don't know their methadology, however, even judging by them, the ratings are less than half the ALMS for every round other than daytona. there is also no media attention on sports shows, or from the press to the series. there are also incredibly small crowds. it simply is not popular among race fans. and gets no attention from the press...

Alexa has a toolbar that, um really isn't useful. Alexa.com measures internet usage, amongst people who have the Alexa toolbar installed. In a test, about a dozen users installed the Alexa toolbar, and very quickly made a very small website appear to have traffic in the multiples of what a site such at Indy Car's gets...

[Flyin Ryan]

In economies like these, privateers are king. Carmakers are nice and make beautiful cars, but they have to ultimately answer to boards of directors and their support for racing ebbs and flows. Privateers on the other hand, most of them fully accept the fact they'll never win and yet spend the money anyway for the sole reason they love it.

ALMS' biggest problem, and this has been true for a long time, is there is no decent-cost privateer car that the carmakers will support outside of Porsche and Ferrari in GT2.

So GrandAm might not gain much, but they have the privateers and everyone watches ALMS for Audi, Porsche, Acura, Corvette, and the GT2 battle. Two of those are gone next year and Corvette will get merged into the GT2 battle.

[Fogelhund]

Just as a side note, it is my expectation that Grand Am will see percentage losses in entry this year, that aren't too far off of the ALMS. They started with a larger base, so it would appear to be more palatable to the fans that they have.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

In economies like these, privateers are king. Carmakers are nice and make beautiful cars, but they have to ultimately answer to boards of directors and their support for racing ebbs and flows. Privateers on the other hand, most of them fully accept the fact they'll never win and yet spend the money anyway for the sole reason they love it.

ALMS' biggest problem, and this has been true for a long time, is there is no decent-cost privateer car that the carmakers will support outside of Porsche and Ferrari in GT2.

So GrandAm might not gain much, but they have the privateers and everyone watches ALMS for Audi, Porsche, Acura, Corvette, and the GT2 battle. Two of those are gone next year and Corvette will get merged into the GT2 battle.

Privateers? I guess we are going back to the old argument that somehow avoiding manufacturers avoids problems in economic downturns - as if the so-called privateers can print money.

A Grand Am team owner says interest from "gentleman drivers" has all but dried up, and that there will be far fewer drivers from other racing series at the Daytona 24. The Rolex 24 grid is going to be down about 30% in one year; Sebring will see a similar decline. Looking at events after those two majors, both series seem to be headed for big hits.

There was more than one respondent in the "Cost of Racing" series linked above that has competed in Grand Am and ALMS. None said that there was a significant difference in cost.

An example is the "spec tire" in Grand Am; in fact the cost per set is not much different than the tire cost in ALMS. Travel is higher. The cost of "hardware" on net (buy, race, sell) is only marginally different, not enough to impact a decision. The real difference, to the extent there is one, is first year cash flow cost, which is less in Grand Am, and engine lease cost, also lower there). But when you take those things across a three-year program, you can't get a huge difference. One respondent offered that typical DP repair costs are not less than LMP repair costs; both have carbon fiber body panels, and those panels have similar cost.

The bottom line is that ALL racing is going to be severely impacted here. They all share one common part of their "business models" that overwhelms any differences: individual teams - and series - are dependent on sponsorship dollars to operate. When those dollars get tight, it's survival of the fittest. If there is a shortage, I'd expect that the big NASCAR teams to do the best....when those sponsors get short they get opportunities to go where they want, and at less cost than before - so naturally they will go "to the top" if they can. Unfortunately for Grand Am, the movement from the bottom to the top of the NASCAR "food chain" is probably easier and quicker than the movement between series and kinds of racing. That's not necessarily good news for ALMS, because the "time difference" may be negligible.

How important is the sponsorship issue? I believe DHL started the whole collapse of the Porsche Spyder program; without DHL walking, I doubt you get everything that followed.

Audi said they would continue with its full ALMS program if it could find a "third party" sponsor. They couldn't. Think about that for a while. If Audi can't find a partner, then what do you expect from a gentleman who made some money in what? Real estate? The stock market? Commodities?

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by TWK

Privateers? I guess we are going back to the old argument that somehow avoiding manufacturers avoids problems in economic downturns - as if the so-called privateers can print money.

Hi Tom.

A successful racing series has to be a good venture for both the carmaker and the privateer. I love racing, but one must admit that in times like these it's an easy target when people are losing their jobs. My own company is partly connected to the automotive industry and we're in relatively good shape financially and yet have still laid off 500 people. Carmakers will always have to answer to a public interest and therefore they cannot be counted on to support a series ad infinitum. Privateers on the other hand are usually teams fronted by rich individuals and while they are not entirely insulated from economic concerns, they are far more insulated than a carmaker.

Audi said they would continue with its full ALMS program if it could find a "third party" sponsor. They couldn't. Think about that for a while. If Audi can't find a partner, then what do you expect from a gentleman who made some money in what?

If that's the case, it tells me that high-profile sportscar racing in the United States is not sustainable and it will die again outside of a couple events at the beginning and end of the year, as it has before. There's no Audi and there's no Porsche. Acura looks upset that they'll be competing by themselves and scale back their involvement. Corvette's dropping down to GT2. So that leaves what, Jon Field winning overall?

[Hugewally]

Why do you think Aucra is upset? Where have they said they're scaling back?

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

Why do you think Aucra is upset? Where have they said they're scaling back?

As I stated in another thread last night.

FWIW, here's what Robin Miller said on the Speed Report tonight concerning Honda leaving Formula One and Audi pulling out of ALMS and any effects on the Le Mans program.

-Honda got into ALMS because they wanted competition and had Porsche and Audi
-de Ferran going up to LMP1 and Porsche and Audi pull out of the series
-Honda's not saying much right now
-Miller thinks they'll relook at their commitment for 2009 because their reason for getting into ALMS was competition and they don't want to compete against nobody, they already do that in the IRL

And one tea leaf from Honda CEO Fukui.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72359

It was also confirmed that Honda's MotoGP and IndyCar programme would not be impacted.

"MotoGP we will continue and in the Indy series we plan to continue," he said. "Regarding other categories, we start thinking now as to what we should do."

MotoGP I can understand as it's a global series. But mentioning Indycar and not ALMS when both are in the same regional niche? It could be that the Acura program doesn't go high up in the Honda Racing business, but corporate omissions are usually by design.


And another point to Tom I forgot in my original post, Audi could not find a sponsor for their car and got out. So it doesn't work for the carmakers in this economy, and you believe it doesn't work for the privateers. So who does ALMS work for?

[FIRE]

---

[zac510]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

MotoGP I can understand as it's a global series. But mentioning Indycar and not ALMS when both are in the same regional niche? It could be that the Acura program doesn't go high up in the Honda Racing business, but corporate omissions are usually by design.

Maybe the journalist interviewing him only asked about Indycar and MotoGP.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Hi Tom.

A successful racing series has to be a good venture for both the carmaker and the privateer. I love racing, but one must admit that in times like these it's an easy target when people are losing their jobs. My own company is partly connected to the automotive industry and we're in relatively good shape financially and yet have still laid off 500 people. Carmakers will always have to answer to a public interest and therefore they cannot be counted on to support a series ad infinitum. Privateers on the other hand are usually teams fronted by rich individuals and while they are not entirely insulated from economic concerns, they are far more insulated than a carmaker.

If that's the case, it tells me that high-profile sportscar racing in the United States is not sustainable and it will die again outside of a couple events at the beginning and end of the year, as it has before. There's no Audi and there's no Porsche. Acura looks upset that they'll be competing by themselves and scale back their involvement. Corvette's dropping down to GT2. So that leaves what, Jon Field winning overall?

Let's take the "far more insulated than a carmaker" part first. Very few "rich individuals" were born that way. Where is their money? What is its source? Real Estate? (PrimeTime Race Group, Black Swan) Construction? (B-K Motorsport, Intersport) Automotive (Gigliotti, Dave Maraj, Guiseppi Risi) Automotive and Leisure (Panoz)

You can go on and on, and I could go to Grand Am or IRL, or any racing series; in that regard, though look at lost sponsors: US Navy, Kodak, DHL, Ruby Tuesday, and many more, not necessarily associated with the Automotive sector.

The truth is that ALL motorsport funding is tied to some industry. Over time, there's no particular reason to expect that the automotive sector will (or has) performed any worse than any other.

Historically, your argument has merit for one reason: diversification. That is, to the extent that the field is supported in agreggate by the money of a wide range of industries and parts of the economy, it has some "insulatiion." That's the real reason underlying the apparent success over time of "privateers" as a group (though not individually, since gentlemen and teams come and go as routinely as anyone else).

But diversification is helpful only when economic stress is localized, e.g., there are some "good" sectors. The problem we have now is there are no "good" sectors in the economy - and world-wide no "safe" geographies. What then?

The second part comes from your inherent faith in "privateers." Jon Field? What would make you think that Jon Field is a competitor in 2009? Maybe, maybe not, but where does the money come from? Banana Joe's? Richard Berry's exotic car "business?"

This time, there is no place to hide.

[TWK]

Flyin Ryan:

And another point to Tom I forgot in my original post, Audi could not find a sponsor for their car and got out. So it doesn't work for the carmakers in this economy, and you believe it doesn't work for the privateers. So who does ALMS work for?

Indeed...and who does it work for? Everybody needs sponsors and sponsorship money and no one is finding as many - or as much - as they need.

That's true for DEI and Ganassi, for Childress, for NASCAR/ISC, for IndyCar, for Audi, and for ALMS. What I don't buy is the distinction, the belief that one business model is inherently better in this circumstance than another.

They all rest on manufacturers, on third party sponsorship, and on the fortunes of individuals in some combination. This time, no part of that that appears particularly more secure than any other.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

As I stated in another thread last night.

Because it was put it in another post makes it fact? Maybe the first inference in that post should be highly adhered to; For What Its Worth!



And one tea leaf from Honda CEO Fukui.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72359

But the rest of the tea blend seems to have been excluded when quoting that article. Such as;
Quote:

Seems to me that a series that is racing hybrids is right up Honda's proverbial alley. But I do not expect Honda (corporate Japan) to expand into the ALMS at this time, but I also do not see them stopping Honda of N. America's Acura LMP program. The program is a winner that comes in at a fraction of the cost of the F-1 program they are closing and explores the avenue of their stated future plans, i.e., "eco hybrid technology".

MotoGP I can understand as it's a global series. But mentioning Indycar and not ALMS when both are in the same regional niche? It could be that the Acura program doesn't go high up in the Honda Racing business, but corporate omissions are usually by design.

Also as zac510 brings to light, what exactly was the question that prompted that answer? Was it specific to Moto GP and IRL?


And another point to Tom I forgot in my original post, Audi could not find a sponsor for their car and got out. So it doesn't work for the carmakers in this economy, and you believe it doesn't work for the privateers. So who does ALMS work for?

L.P.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by TWK

This time, there is no place to hide.

Allright then, in all your wisdom, you're Scott Atherton. What are you doing for your series in 2009? Your longstay Audi told you they're not running past Sebring. Porsche pulled out, mainly due to DHL quitting as you said. Corvette is stated to be going to GT2 but I would not consider them rock solid due to what's going on with General Motors and Congress. Acura is in place but a bit peeved it's been reported that there's no competition and their corporation just pulled out of Formula One.

That leaves you Rob Dyson, Acura and Corvette currently, and the privateer battle in GT2. So maybe 15 or so cars.

Also as zac510 brings to light, what exactly was the question that prompted that answer? Was it specific to Moto GP and IRL?

What Japanese journalist would specifically bring up Indycar? The question was probably "any effects on other racing programs?" Am I 100% confident? No. But I'll take that bet with me having 8 to 11 odds.

[AU N EGL]

Woof. This old dog is sitting this barking contest out.

[broadrun96]

Has everybody forgotten Acura has something in hand that Audi didn't really have and stated they were looking for to run all season? I'm guessing Shell was more of a partner than sponsor and they weren't ready to pick up the whole tab. Multiple teams and full sponsorship deals at Acura may make them somewhat more stable as a pseudo-factory effort and I'm sure not running a car in the class promised to Patron and Panasonic would violate their sponsorship agreement and cost Acura as much money as testing a new car and could cost them the sponsor later.
As for the MotoGP and Indycar comment, don't both of those series run at least one event in Japan? Thus a Japanese reporter asking about both series wouldn't be out of the question. Not asking about the ALMS would make sense to me as it's not run in Japan and who knows if the Asian Le Mans challenge, or whatever it was to be called, will ever leave the ground.