Suzuka Gravel traps - did they work?

[VIVA GT]

I've been waiting all weekend to see if anyone else asked this question, but as no one has, thought I'd raise the subject myself.
After the number of big accidents at the latest GP it seemed clear to me that the gravel traps at Suzuka didn't do the job of slowing the cars down that they are supposed to do. It was even possible to drive back out of them again!
Shouldn't they have at least been raked (as they used to be here in the UK) to loosen them up?

[Sodemo]

Suzuka is fine safety wise.

It would be a shame if another track got destroyed in the name of 20 acres of tarmac run off like every other track.

[VIVA GT]

No, I agree, Martin Brundle made a comment during qualifying something about tarmac run-off areas the size of supermarket car parks. It's just that the gravel traps didn't appear to do the job of arresting errant cars, that was the point I was trying to make.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Yeh he also made a comment about driver's "paying the price" for a mistake.

It made me realise that actually, this really doesn't happen too much anymore, does it?

Selby

[Mr V]

I don't like seeing masses amounts of run off area's, that said, i don't like seeing drivers injured and missing the race due to it.

[crmalcolm]

I think that Suzuka has it right in terms of run-off area. It's just that the gravel in the traps seems to be the wrong type, or needs to be corrugated to ensure cars dig in.

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think that Suzuka has it right in terms of run-off area. It's just that the gravel in the traps seems to be the wrong type, or needs to be corrugated to ensure cars dig in.

OR bounce up into the wall at a bad angle.

Perhaps just change the material in the gravel trap so that if you get off line you really pay the price (ie. get bogged).

[JackN]

Originally Posted by Mr V

i don't like seeing drivers injured and missing the race due to it.

Even if there had been tarmac run off, Super Glock just wasnt paying attention and drove into a wall. Sure he may have been able to turn away somewhat, but it still would have been a hefty shunt.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

Perhaps just change the material in the gravel trap so that if you get off line you really pay the price (ie. get bogged).

Sounds like a good idea to me.
Half a car width off track and you're in 2-inch sand or mud would keep people on track through corners as well.

[Steven Humphrey]

The gravel traps just weren't deep enough (or the gravel had been heavily compacted apart from the top inch or so). All the gravel traps I've walked through in the UK are deep, at least a foot. Walking through them is like walking through deep, powdery sand. The marshals in Japan just seemed to walk over them as though there was nothing there.

I agree with comments about Suzuka being a 'proper' track, without acres of run off but gravel traps are different- they are just designed to slow cars down, not so they can rejoin the track & carry on racing. It's very rare for a car to be able to drive out of a trap once it's gone in. The traps at Suzuka were actually very dangerous as they didn't slow the cars and didn't give any grip (like the asphalt run-offs that plague most modern circuits)-they might as well not have been there at all.

[tristancliffe]

Gravel traps have rarely been very effective at slowing a car going forwards. They work best when the car is going sideways. Tarmac is better when the car is going forwards (assuming the brakes/steering/wheels are all vaguely working), but less good when the car is going sideways. Tarmac isn't very good at slowing falling motorbikes, or when the circuit layout doesn't leave much room before the barriers.
Gravel also has the benefit, most of the time, of not letting drivers get away from mistakes. Even if they can drive through them they usually mess up the tyres at the least, or require a pitstop to clean out the sidepods at the most.

I'd much rather have gravel traps than tarmac, and have the odd driver hurt, than have boring safe tracks where mistakes go unpunished. If the viewers or the competitors don't like it, they don't have to watch - although history shows they still will. This isn't a baby-school for drivers, but the best (apparently) in the best cars on the 'best' tracks.

I'm not suggesting every safety advancement should be removed - far from it, but I think there is a point where too much safety is a bad thing. And in my opinion (mine; I'm not telling you what opinion you should have) tarmac run-off spoils races more often than it improves them. I'm not suggesting tyre walls, high cockpit sides, carbon safety cells or any of the other brilliant safety devices are discontinued though - those that either make a crash safer that will still end the drivers race, or those that don't let the drivers get away with too much. But tarmac run off is too much of a get out of jail free card.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Yeh your final paragraph sums it up for me, perfectly.

Selby

[VIVA GT]

/\ /\
Me too, well said. Unfortunately the Suzuka gravel traps did neither. Drivers couldn't use them like a get out of jail free card and intentionally drive through them. Nor did they punish the careless by stpoonig the car from moving (and the same goes for slowing them down after the start of the accident, but before the impact).

[strider]

I agree that we don't want tarmac run-off areas, but I think the gravel run-off areas at Suzuka should be made 1) larger and 2) more effective.

I have no problem with a driver paying the price for making a mistake, that's how it should be, but I don't want to see them getting hurt either. I reckon it was a testament to the strength of modern F1 cars that only Glock was injured over the weekend.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I think back in the early 90's, we would have seen a few drivers out of the race that weekend..

Selby

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I think back in the early 90's, we would have seen a few drivers out of the race that weekend..

Selby

Yes, and not so many crashed cars bounced back onto the track too if the gravel had done what it was supposed to.

[Sodemo]

Footballers suffer worse injuries every weekend. I think some perspective is needed.

[Lotusonpole]

We may have forgotten one point that was raised in the BBC coommentary, that Suzuka hosts a fair number of Motorcycle events and gravel suits them better than tarmac.

I suppose an occasional grand prix every few years may not outweigh the number of bike events warranting laying tarmac everywhere.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Shouldn't they have at least been raked (as they used to be here in the UK) to loosen them up?

I have to agree with you. Because of the rain, it hardpackted so the car glided over the gravel, not dig in.

[Malfunction Junction]

Originally Posted by Razor

I have to agree with you. Because of the rain, it hardpackted so the car glided over the gravel, not dig in.

WE HAVE A WINNER!


As mentioned by the commentators, the surface required treatment post downpour. The areas themselves were of sufficient size and appropriate material, so long as they are correctly configured. In this case, all they needed was a plough, or even that enormous digger being driven around the sandtrap in pretty patterns instead of skulking behind the walls waiting to leap on the wreckage of a degner too far....

[bravo]

What was that about loosening up the gravel traps so they get bogged down?


c/o dicktay @ photography-on-the.net

[ECW Dan Selby]

lol!

Would that not be effective, in a mad way...?


Selby

[Lotusonpole]

Maybe F1 should try 4WD again?

[strider]

Well, it stopped the car from hitting the barrier, didn't it?

If anything with a vertical hoist could get close enough, it would be a pretty straightforward lift.

[parkingjedi]

I was at the race and did the track walk after the GP was over. I like many was keen to check out the Denger corner gravel trap.
Must say it was pretty hard, compacted gravel, no the loose deep stuff you see at so many other modern F1 circuits that really bogs the cars down.



The aftermath of JA's stack at the end of the race.