Stronger Atlantic Ties

[Tailwind]

New Toyota/Atlantic team Pacific Coast Racing is now officially the development team for Pat Patrick Racing. Good stuff Patrick Racing! I'm surprised there aren't more Champ Car teams with programs in T/A. I know a few teams like Players and Rahal have relationships with the development series, but IMHO not enough. If Toyota Atlantic is supposed to be the AAA for Champ Cars then relationships like the Skysocks to the Rockies should be much more prevalent. Stronger ties need to be forged.

[macdaddy]

More and more, ChampCar rides require briefcases as much as (more than?) skill. 'Twould be nice if every team had a "farm team" like traditional stick-and-ball sports, but this business is different. I applaud those teams that do partake in the feeder series, but it remains to be seen if any of their own talent ever makes the jump. (With the notable exception of Players).

[Dov]

It's about time, but the Atlantic car(s) specs have to be changed to make it more difficult for the guys to drive the car. Then when a Atlantic driver gets a test drive with a CART team, the learning curve is not so great.

[camcartfan]

The learning curve should be great between Atlantics and Champ Cars. If you know baseball, playing AAA ball is much different than playing in the Big Club. The overwhelming majority of AAA ball players that go to the Big Club's spring training never make it. If it is the same in Champ Cars, you have a much better high end product.

[Fogelhund]

Not so sure I agree Dov. To make the cars closer in spec to CART would make the cars even more expensive then they currently are, and there has been plenty of critism that the cars already are too expensive.

[Dov]

A lot of people in CART are saying the reason the Europeans and Brazilians are getting rides (in CART) is because the F3000 car(S) specs are a lot closer to the CART specs. I no what some of you are going to say. They bring sponsors (money) with them, but if you look at the times put up by Atlantic drivers and F3000 drivers, when they tested a Champ-Car...the F3000 guys were up to pace much quicker then the Atlantic drivers.

[Fogelhund]

Dov - probably because they are more talented. The pool of drivers in F3000 is simply a higher calibre then the pool in Atlantics.

[Dov]

Foqelhund- tell me your just kidding Don't listen to what the Europeans and Brazilians tell you, we are just as good as they are.

[champcarman]

American drivers have as much talent as any nationality. Nationality doesn't decide whether you can drive a race car.The problem the US drivers have is that Nascar takes all the money and often takes the most talented drivers who then waste their skill driving dinasuars around in circles. Having said this I do not believe Atlantics are a great training ground for Champ Cars. Indy Lights was better and F3000 is similar to Indy Lights. A manufacturer based Series is desirable though and maybe Toyota should look at a similar car to the Dallara Nissan Series based in Spain.

[The Snout]

Personally, I'd like to see Atlantics developed into a Busch type series like in NASCAR. With so few guys going into Champcar I think if it could be grown into a place where if you stay 2,3,4 years it's not looked upon as a bad thing, a series of value worth winning. Rather it being just a support race, make it a proper part of the undercard.
Needs a few more horsepower.

[Dov]

NASCAR takes the young talented American drivers who where brought up as road racers...Casey Mears and A.J. Foyt's son or nephew. The IRL takes a few Americans, some Europeans and Brazilians who where brought up as road course racers...Franchitti, Kanaan and Dixon.
One guy in paticular who should be in CART instead of the IRL is Thomas Scheckter. His Father was F1 Champion with Ferrari (Jody Scheckter). Why Thomas wants to waste his time going left all the time, when he was brought up as a road course racer is beyond me.

[veeten]

Dov, in a previous thread I had listed the spec differences between T/A, F3000, Champ Cars, and F1. For those who missed it, here it is again;

Toyota Atlantic

N/A DOHC I-4 1.6L
250hp@9500rpm
wheelbase-104"
Length -167.25"
weight -1256lbs.

F3000

N/A DOHC V-8 3.L
460hp@9000rpm
wheelbase-3000mm
weight -660kgs.(1452lbs.)

Champ Car

Turbo DOHC V-8 2.65L
750hp@12,000+rpm
wheelbase-120*126"
length -190*199"
weight -1550lbs.


F1

N/A DOHC V-10 3.L
860hp@18,000+rpm
wheelbase-106*120"
weight -1322.77lbs.


as I said before, there is a distinct difference between chassis, especially the T/A's and the F3000's, and which are more closer to the Champ Cars. In the past we had a similar deal, namely IndyLights, but during the short-sighted thinking processes of past regiemes it had been sacrificed due to the political machinations of keeping Toyota happy, and involved. This is why the present group of T/A drivers had been more of a "lost generation", and how during both the pre-season tests and the recent St.Pete race, that several F3000 drivers have gotten to grips with the Champ Cars so quickly and easily.

This can't be ignored, not any longer. Pook knew this, and CART may have its work cut-out for them in trying to repair the Ladder system before it gets any worse.

[Jay]

I don't know... I think very highly of the Atlantic formula and wouldn't want to change a lot about it. The only thing that I think should be changed is a more powerful engine and reduce costs. Maybe go to around 450hp... Other than that, it is doing all that could be asked of a development series. F3000 is a step above Atlantic, although that could change if the Atlantics are given more HP and can attract more young talent from across the pond.

Reducing costs would also help big time, as it would attract more skilled drivers from Europe that want somewhere cheaper to race. Atlantic should not only target Barber Dodge, but also Formula Renault and even Formula 3 in both Britain and Europe. There are lots of fast guys here looking for a good resonably priced ride. Ryan Dalziel who finished 2nd to Kimi Raikkonen in British FRenault drove in two races for Hylton last year, and was almost always faster than Ryan Hunter-Reay. If he has a competitive ride this year, he's a definate contender. If he wins the championship, others overseas will take a closer look.

The reason more F3000 guys get Cart rides than guys in Atlantic is in most cases they are bringing sponsorship or other funds that the Atlantic guys are not. The Toyota Atlantic series can hardly be faulted for that... If Americans want to see American drivers, then it's time they supported them! Same with Canadian drivers.

Overall though, Formula Atlantic is probably the healthiest open-wheel series in North America. There won't be as many cars this year as some predicted midway through last year (some were saying 30+), but that has more to do with economics than a lack of competitive young guns. The level of competition is increasing each year and should be more competitive than ever this year with at least 10 serious contenders for the championship - there arent' many other single seater series that can make that claim.

Can't wait for 2003!

[Jay]

Also, if you thought Cart was dieing check out F3000... so far they only have 10 cars confirmed for 2003...

If Atlantic can reduce their costs, and beef up their cars to be comperable to F3000s (keep as much of the current chassis as possible though), they could have a great opportunity right now...

[veeten]

Lovely sentiment, until you look at the current specs and realize that any changes will have to include a brand new chassis/powertrain combination.

No doubt, this will cost.

There is more to it here than just swapping an engine, or putting a higher load setting on the suspension. There needs to be another "rung" here, as this is a very large gap between the Atlantics and Champ Cars. And this is one problem that more teams or sponsor cash isn't going to solve, period. If this means creating a new series, fine. Or replacing one with a more-closer series to Champ Cars, even better. But trying to ignore a 500hp/300lbs. chasm is outright stupidity, and these drivers shouldn't have to pay the price for it if any are looking to take the next step.

[Jay]

Good point veeten, but I feel it is possible to have a series with a cost lower than the current F3000 and FAtlantic, with specs closer to those of F3000. You're probably right about the chassis, my only feeling there is that the current model is so good I'd hate to see it done away with completely. I'm sure there are at least aspects of the current chassis into one that could take a more powerful engine. I don't think this would be too difficult, as an atlantic car is basically a mini-Champ car.