Marshal's role in a "car off"

[Neil C]

I'm sorry the thread regarding "violent Raikonnen" was closed before I had a chance to respond.

I've had the opportunity to see the role of a Marshal from both sides, driver and volunteer course Marshal.

Here are some facts.
-Yes, a driver may be a highly skilled and trained athlete, however, when his total mental and physical focus is suddenly turned off during an unexpected interuption in his race, unexpected things can happen. He can collapse like Nelson Piquet, and have to be lifted from his seat. His mind and heart rate are probably still racing (literally, he he). It should not be assumed that he is, or will act rationally.
-There are several reasons a Marshal might touch a driver. Good ones know when, and when not to. Due to adrenaline, a driver may not be able to focus on the job at hand: to get out of the car and away safely. A touch will help focus the driver on the Marshal who is there to get him away, and make sure the driver is ok. Marshal's may also engage in conversation, not to schmooze a driver, but to asses their capacity for rational thought. Second, a guiding touch helps direct the driver in the right direction. I've seen drivers, still in their racing mindset, suddenly want to run back to their car to look at something, or onto the track to send a message to their competitors. A Marshal can never be too sure what an adrenaline addled driver might do suddenly.
-Last. Yes there are a few Marshal's who let their authority go to their head, but they are few. I'm totaly surprised to read posts by people who think Marshals think the event centers on them. We are just lucky there are enough of them so races can be conducted safely.

[Logrence]

Spot on, Neil.

Marshals ought to watch out, though - anyone see the feature on Paul Ricard in F1 Magazine a few months back? Completely marshal-less...just recovery vehicles and rescue units...

[Heebeegeetee]

I missed a chance to post, too.
I'm afraid I'm one who also wonders just why marshals feel they have to manhandle the drivers when they're in the position that Kimi was in at that moment, and I wonder if that marshal was surprised at the response he got.
The post on the other thread, stating that drivers can often be shaky and can't get out of the car etc was utter tosh. The marshals usually seem to impede the driver's, not help them. Let's remember that the drivers have to pass a test to evacuate the car in six seconds or whatever - all too many marshals seem to be so large that once in they'd never get out.
Incidentally - do marshals still marshal for free, and if so, given the sheer amount of money in the sport, why?
Do they ever consider that if they all insisted on being paid, they probably would be?

[Adam43]

It was I who closed the thread which was, shall we say, out of hand! Anyway I did invite people to start a new one if they wished, so here we are.

I reckon we should have a blatant plug for the Marshal's forum here. Perhaps some of you would like to learn more about Marshalling and that is definitely the place to go.

http://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisp...?s=&forumid=39

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Heebeegeetee
The post on the other thread, stating that drivers can often be shaky and can't get out of the car etc was utter tosh. The marshals usually seem to impede the driver's, not help them.Let's remember that the drivers have to pass a test to evacuate the car in six seconds or whatever - all too many marshals seem to be so large that once in they'd never get out.

I'll ignore the offensive remark about the size of marshals & just remind you that the evacuation test is done with an uninjured driver & an undamaged car. Utter tosh? A driver may well be disorientated, possibly suffering from head or neck injury. Read Neil's post again.

Incidentally - do marshals still marshal for free, and if so, given the sheer amount of money in the sport, why?
Do they ever consider that if they all insisted on being paid, they probably would be?

The answer to the first question is yes. The answer to the second, patronising, question is that there are very good reasons why most marshals don't want marshalling to become a paid job.

You seem to know just how marshals should handle incidents. Ever thought of putting your money where your mouth is?

[Woolley]

That was a little strong, Dave, but I accept some of the comments in the original post were a little heated and ill-informed.

I didn't see the incident, but there's always the possibility that the marshal made a mistake - mis-judged the situation slightly, perhaps was in a dangerous position and so his own adrenaline levels were high, probably having fun a couple of hundred yards in full overalls and boots. Marshals do get it wrong sometimes, however hard we try not to. So do drivers, that's why they need marshals. In my experience, drivers who spend their time cocooned in a very safe environment, sometimes forget that it becomes dangerous when they get out. Their mind is usually on something else, nobody likes retiring either mechanically or worse because of error. They also like to radio the team, and so, in order to assist everyone's safety, it can be necessary to hurry them along a little at a time when they can't hear over the PA/engines/crowd and through the helmet which contains ear defenders and radio earpieces.

I'd say to anyone out there - try it once. It's not easy. We do our best to protect everyone's safety, and sometimes it's not perfect.


And no, I don't think marshals should be paid, because look at the attitude of the average security guard (I can see the letters now) who's there only for the money as it's a boring job, and imagine marshals there for the same reason. A contribution towards expenses might be nice, though.

[Stephen Green]

Actually I didn't feel Daves remark was a little strong, I think he said what the majority of us feel.

I believe Neil C has summed up the situation admirably, thank you Neil for your objective and accurate viewpoint.

Adam, if you feel it correct, by all means move this thread to the marshals forum.

[chezza]

I have to agree with Neil C and Stephen on this one!

Not all marshals are large in this thread and also in the previous thread there was a mention about the size of drivers and marshals...I'm only 5'4" and not overly heavy, therefore most drivers are bigger than I am, most of the time I find a touch on the shoulder (if I can reach) is necessary!

Marshals shouldn't be paid. Payment would result in people entering marshalling for the wrong reasons. Expense cover would be good though!

[Heebeegeetee]

Originally posted by Woolley
And no, I don't think marshals should be paid, because look at the attitude of the average security guard (I can see the letters now) who's there only for the money

Thing is, people work as security guards to earn a living, whereas you're not going to earn a living doing a fews days a month marshaling.
It's just that, I really do struggle with the concept of people giving up large amounts of non-work time, away from their families etc., for free, when the majority of people out there racing are very wealthy, if not stinking rich.
One of the problems with motorsport is the large number of classes/categories, thin grids etc. If there was less money around 'cos competitors are having to cover marshaling costs, there might be fewer classes but larger grids.
An oversimplification I know, but there is a hell of a lot of money swilling around out there. If marshals aren't even having their travel expenses covered (or are they? I'm right out of touch on this one)then, I'm sorry, but it seems to be bordering on insanity, IMO.

[Woolley]

Nope, we're not having expensed covered, just the occasional fiver depending on the club, sometimes a raffle, buy your own equipment, pay your own petrol and provide your own lunch. Now I wouldn't mind some of the above being attended at (fuel vouchers from the companies involved in racing? Servicing discounts, etc?) but I'm dead against being paid a rate, and I think most marshals agree with that.

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of security at these types of events - concerts and other sports included - do it as an additional week-end type of job for extra cash, not for the love of the sport. I think if you're going to be trackside, I want to be with someone who wants to be there and isn't just interested in getting enough dosh for a holiday.

Re my "a little strong" comment, I'm not saying I disagree, but the impression I got was that this was sort of an information thread for non-marshals, who probably won't understand the strength of feeling that has provoked the wording of the reply. The content was spot on, though.

Anyway, back to the original thread, marshals concern is,and always will be, the safety of all the participants, and the general order of importance is:
1 Yourself. The only thing worse than a casualty is another one. Don't be that casualty, because then you can't do what you're there for helping others.
2 Your colleagues. Same reason as above, and if you're looking out for them and vice-versa we're all safer.
3 Spectators (where appropriate) They're paying to be there, or guests of someone. They're not expecting to go back injured or worse.
4 Drivers. They know the risks they're taking, and understand others are there to help them if necessary. They excercise the greatest choice in the risk factor by how and what they drive.

5 The cars. Bent metal can be repaired. If it's introducing additional risk to others, then you'll deal with it, subject to the above rules. It's the least important element in the risk assesment.

All incident handling will follow the above order unless there is a pressing reason to change it, because those priorities will generally be condusive to the greatest elimination of danger to all.

[Woolley]

Boy, do I go on when I'm feeling enthusiastic about a subject. Sorry.