[LM24] W.M.P. at Le Mans 1988?

[RacingManiac]

Anyone has a picture of this car? I am curious as to what a 405km/h car looks like.....

[Nordic]

WM

This is taken for a fantastic new web page put togeather by Luis Santos.
an amazing amount of work. well done

http://www.mcestoril.pt/le-mans/index_gb.html

[RacingManiac]

woah......that's pretty cool looking car.....

Thanks!

[JAG]

Unfortunately it usually burst into Flames!

I have a book about the Le Mans Group C cars, in which it says the WM had pretty poor aerodynamics as the Sauber Mercedes and Toyota both broke 250MPH in practice yet created sufficiant downforce for a quick lap as well. In the case of the Sauber Mercedes it also created low drag.

In the book they also say the WM did a test on a French motorway, filmed for French TV, where the WM did 260mph.

Anyone have any info on this?

[dretceterini]

WM and the current WR LMP2 teams are related.

[Aysedasi]

Gerard Welter is the W in both, as I understand it......

[Aysedasi]

It was marvellous during the RLM commentary in 1989 (I think), when Bob Constanduros (on one of his rare RLM appearances) was interviewing Toivonen (again, I think). John Hindhaugh kep trying to break into the interview to let us all know the shattering news that the WM was ablaze..... Bob wasn't greatly impressed at being interrupted for such a momentous reason...... (Buy the 89 RLM tape - I think you can still get it from Duke, and you'll hear and see all this......

[MulsanneMike]

The important thing to remember about the WM project is that it was primarily an afterhours project and certainly didn't receive the funding that the Sauber and Toyota efforts did. Secondly, its important to note that the WM's speed is the only officially acknowledge 250+ speed by the ACO. I've personally never seen official acknowledgement of the C9s speed (though seen their claims used in print marketing) nor the Toyota.

[templer]

Hello MIke,

I am a little bit surprised that you don`t believe the Mercedes C9 top speeds mentioned in the oress. The WM had aerodyamical lacks cause they reached over 400 km/h with the WM P489 but the total lap time was only good enough for the 19th position. So the car lost much time in other parts of the circuit.

The C9 drove with much more downforce than the Porsche 962 and the Jaguar XJR-9 LM. According to Karl Ludvigsen the C9 Le Mans version have so splitter, covered louvres over the front fender and a smaller single plane rear wing. But the underbody was exactly the same than in sprint configuration. So the car produced higher downforce figures than most of the other competitors in Le Mans 1989.

JAG can you tell me please the title of this book. I am on the search for good book about the group C cars.

Regards

Markus

[MulsanneMike]

My quibble is only against the claim that they (the C9) topped 250 mph. Officially they only reached 248 mph. Give credit where credit is due, WM is the only car to have ever officially topped 250 mph irregardless of their lackluster lap time.

[Aysedasi]

Let's face it as well, the team set out with just one goal, to get that time on the Mulsanne - getting around the rest of the circuit was very much a secondary consideration.....

[Nordic]

Am I right in thinking the WM did the magic 250mph during the race?

I remember reading it had all its ducts taped over and the boost wound right up the wings trimmed right down. The Motor was terminally sick, so the team had nothing to lose so straped the brave/foolhardy driver in a sent him out.

The relative budjets of the teams, the WM effort was heroic.

[KA]

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
The important thing to remember about the WM project is that it was primarily an afterhours project and certainly didn't receive the funding that the Sauber and Toyota efforts did.

Am I imagining it, or were they supposed to have received some 'back-door' assistance from the Peugeot factory over engine development? I'm sure I've read somewhere that this was the case, and as I recall (ironically, given the lack of performance of a later generation of Peugeot V6 in Pescarolo's Courage) they certainly weren't short of horsepower- something over 900bhp from memory....

[Nordic]

You are right, either the W or M of WM was a Peugeot employee (stylist?) at the time I think.
I believe it was an 'after hours effort' that involved time and the use of dynos etc rather than money from Peugeot.
I think Esso where involved as well with some 'special fuel'.

[KA]

Originally posted by Nordic
You are right, either the W or M of WM was a Peugeot employee (stylist?) at the time I think.
I believe it was an 'after hours effort' that involved time and the use of dynos etc rather than money from Peugeot.
I think Esso where involved as well with some 'special fuel'.

I believe Welter was Peugeot's chief stylist

[JAG]

Markus, the book is called 'The Anatomy and Development of the Sports Prototype Racing Car' by Ian Bamsey.

Regarding the WM, apparently the car did 252mph in both 1988 and 1989, as logged on the cars ECU, but the radars at LM were not accurate enough. They ran again in 1989 with extra boost, and a new radar, and evetually clocked an official 251mph.

The car was also tested on an unopened French Motorway and clocked 258mph in 1988 driven by Francois Migault.

The WMs drag co-efficient was Cd = 0.28.

The book says the C9, with 820BHP, and the Toyota with 950BHP both ran 'over' 250mph in 1989.

The official Toyota drag coeffient was Cd = 0.43 with a lift:drag ratio of 3.2:1. High for the time, but 950BHP was enough to drag the car down the straights for a 250MPH top speed.

The Toyota was a qualifying special, and claimed pole. However it was sent to the back of the grid because different chassis were not allowed to be used just for qualifying, or something similar.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by JAG


The Toyota was a qualifying special, and claimed pole. However it was sent to the back of the grid because different chassis were not allowed to be used just for qualifying, or something similar.

Yep, they made the mistake of running it with a "T" on the side.....

[PRF]

Absolutley correct. The car was N0 17 and the lap was recorded by Geoff Lees.

PRF

[Fab]

For WM fans, I don't wanna spill the beans, but we MAY have a WM on the track in July (Le Mans Classic)...

More to come, I hope, from a well known man here around...

[PRF]

Laughing and joking apart the old WM's were pretty compeitive cars. Perhaps, who knows, they might have featured rather better than they did if they'd had top line drivers.

Other French Teams such as Rondeau, Cougar (now Courage)had strong driving squads which were multi-national.

However, I always remember the opening laps of the 1984 (?) Le Mans event when Roger Dorchy I think was leading and then promptly spun it all away.

PRF

[Aysedasi]

The WM's may have been fast, but their mechanical fragility meant they could never be competitive, but they were a lot better looking than the WRs which have evolved from them.......

[Megatron]

THey also had a narrow tire package from Michelin to help them on the Muslane straight, right?

[Nordic]

Laughing and joking apart the old WM's were pretty compeitive cars. Perhaps, who knows, they might have featured rather better than they did if they'd had top line drivers.

Your right, the team did field mainly rent-a-drivers, but some pretty quick people have also been there,
Didier Theys
P Fabre
G Frequelin
J.C Audruet
F Migault
P Gache
and one T.Boutsen in 1981

The WM team was always one of my favorites, they always seemed to be having a good time and mainly managed to get at least on car to the finish.
If a 'Sprit of Le Mans' award was given, I would give it to them for their efforts in the 1980's.WM

[Chofar]

I think Dorchy was also the man who broke the 400 limit. I don't know if he can be called a top-driver, but you'd have to pay me a huge amount of bucks to be strapped in that car at that speed. That night, the car made a pit-stop just before his record and was way more powerful just after, with some fish-tailing at the exit of the last chicane. And if I remember well it broke not so long after the record.
Andruet had a crash in 84 or 85 with one of those, too. He had been quite lucky.

[PascaLM]

Originally posted by PRF
Laughing and joking apart the old WM's were pretty compeitive cars. Perhaps, who knows, they might have featured rather better than they did if they'd had top line drivers.

Other French Teams such as Rondeau, Cougar (now Courage)had strong driving squads which were multi-national.

However, I always remember the opening laps of the 1984 (?) Le Mans event when Roger Dorchy I think was leading and then promptly spun it all away.

PRF

Yes it was in 1984.
It was a stunning start for the WM, wasn't it ?
First lap: Dorchy on the WM n°23, Wollek 2nd on the Lancia n°4 !
Indeed, the main teams were cautious because of the consumption strategy. It was a unique opportunity for WM to take the lead. Unfortunately, Dorchy missed the braking at Mulsanne in the 5th lap and hit the wall...