Holding area

[graeme]

Shelia's posting on pit marshal guidance triggered a few synapses in my brian, but rather than add off-topic to her thread, I thought I'd start my own. Last year at Thruxton, I was about 4 or 5th car in the holding area; my planning being to follow the first few (faster) cars out and work with them to get a good qualifying time. But the holding area marshal walked in front of all the cars to waive them off, hence there was a large gap between me and the cars in front which I couldn't make up. I qualified by myself and was way down the grid. Something for holding area marshals to bear in mind - comments?

[MikeM]

That used to be the way in NWFF with the best race being to get there first. End last year, holding area positions were determined by ballot. There were various opinions on this system! The marshals at Oulton don't normally cause the problem you describe.

[graeme]

Most holding areas are fine; just got caught out at Thruxton (where you really need a good slipstream...). We normally sort ourselves out so that those who (think they) are fastest, go out first. It does occassionally get a bit silly when drivers start queing up an hour before!

[Sheila M]

Graeme - cast your mind back to the Plum Pudding meeting. Not only was I chief pits I was chief assembly as well (nothing like being versatile!). So, how did you think my team did the job of releasing you for practice that day?

Sheila

[JimW]

Originally posted by Sheila M
Graeme - cast your mind back to the Plum Pudding meeting. Not only was I chief pits I was chief assembly as well (nothing like being versatile!). So, how did you think my team did the job of releasing you for practice that day?

Sheila

Graeme

I'd think very carefully before answering this question - she knows who you are.

Jim

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by JimW
Graeme

I'd think very carefully before answering this question - she knows who you are.

Jim

Of course I do - I was very nice to him when I introduced myself!

Of course as it was Christmas I'd left the broomstick at home

[graeme]

Boxing Day was perfect But to be serious, I'm not lambasting whoever was the holding area marshal at Thruxton, just is there a learning point there?

[b1ackcr0w]

graeme

I don't do circuit pit lane, just the Speed Hillclimb paddock, which has some vague similarities.

You are right that there is a learning point, in fact there are two. One for Marshals and one for the driver. The one for the Marshal is evident in your post, ie drivers have a reason for the actions they take. In quali sessions even the way the leave the pits can start to stuff up their weekend if it goes wrong. A fair point well made.

The Lesson for the driver is less aparent. In some recent marshal training sessions and while mooching around paddocks, I've had a chance to get a flavour of just how restricted a drivers view is. With a full face, tiny mirrors et al, the awareness of whats near you can be heavily restricted. Pit marshalling is a job where we have to assume the role of your eyes and ears. What we also have to do is realise that it's natural for you to be charged up with adrenaline just before a quali session. And in those kind of circumstances, the only option we have is to be a little over cautious. So if we do things that seem to make it harder for you, it's generally because we're trying to take early action to reduce a danger that you aren't able to see for yourself. Which is of course, very frustrating when you don't know why.

It's always good for us to be reminded or be given insight into how we can do the job better, and I'll try and take what I can from what you've said into the paddock next time I work it. I hope that you take what I've said in the spirit it's meant IE we're just here to keep you safe, and that if you understand us better, hopefully you'll be safer and happier.

[Sheila M]

Graeme I wonder if the people who released you at Thruxton were not very experienced? It sometimes happens when we are short staffed at any circuit for assembly/holding area people to be press-ganged from other areas. They know the basics of the job but are not as experienced as the "regulars" and so are liable to make the odd mistake. Personally I don't normally "do" assembly areas but having worked several pit lanes over the years I know to keep out of the way of eager driverse once the green flag has been waved, which is why I did just that at the Plum Pudding meeting! I this this is something that may have to be addressed at the training days and I will mention it to Alan Ward, who is also an MSA Registered Trainer (amongst everything else he does!)

Sheila

[graeme]

Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I should have spoken to the holding area marshal before we went out, saying what I intended to do... (But I'd never been held back before). The holding area is a "dangerous" area when the cars are being released - in Graduates we clear 30+ cars in maybe 30 seconds - in hindsight I'm suprised there's never been contact, but we all know what we are intending to do (follow out the car in front ASAP).

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by graeme
Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I should have spoken to the holding area marshal before we went out, saying what I intended to do... (But I'd never been held back before). The holding area is a "dangerous" area when the cars are being released - in Graduates we clear 30+ cars in maybe 30 seconds - in hindsight I'm suprised there's never been contact, but we all know what we are intending to do (follow out the car in front ASAP).

Why do you think I stand on the other side of the barrier at Mallory to wave the green flag?

[HiRich]

If I can offer one small suggestion. At the events I attend (very low-level club meets, as a competitor), the holding area always seems to be a bit of a dog's dinner, with no-one really sure what's happening. A couple of things that might help:
- If the cars are backed up to the fence/wall (like at Cadwell, Snett), some clearer "bays" for each position on the grid might help. If you know you are P15, the driver will be able to position his car without guidance from the marshal (who can then be focusing on the more dopey drivers).
- A clearer indication of timing would help. The green flag/wave-out can happen quite suddenly. Some drivers aren't in their cars. Others have been sitting there, cooking their engines. This especially applies in our cars, where the cars don't have starter motors - cue a panic getting 'drives' in the car & belted up, and then getting him on his way. A code (either 5/2/1min boards, or a flag/marker system for previous session finished/course car still out clearing up/ 2 minutes), would help. Even shouting and finger signals ("wreckage to collect - at least 5 minutes"; "nearly ready - 2 minutes") would be an improvement.
I appreciate these aren't your 'fault', and they could cause more problems (we don't want yet another delay between races), but I think there's an opportunity to improve things here.

And Sheila, on the off-chance you did Holding at the 750MC October meet at Mallory, I was the push-starter who did a triple roll & bounced towards pit lane when the car fired & drove off from under me...

[stroller]

HiRich

I think you may have been a little unlucky in the past. From what I can see most of the race organisers I have contact with already utilise most of the points raised.

Of course being first inthe assembly area is "pot luck" as far as practice is concerned, but for the races most organisations position the cars in grid order if only to assist in forming the grid.

For the same reason most of the assembly area personel will also give warning of an imminent start (again for racing to prevent fragmentation of the grid formation) Some of the Clubs use a convoy system whereby competitors follow a course car at much reduced speed onto the grid, thus allowing circuit cleanup operations to continue.

Usually the chief assembly area marshal is in radio contact with race control so has a good idea of what is happening out on the circuit and can also relay back any problems (usually late arrivals )


Hope this helps

[graeme]

The conveying 'round of cars is an excellent idea - anything to save time on the programme. I think its only 750MC who do this?

I'm always suprised at the location of the holding area/parc ferme at Oulton - if they were the other way around, it would save a (slow) lap on each race...

Rich - you're not the only one to have misfortunes in the holding area. A few years ago at a Powertour meeting at Doners, I started up my Caterham in the holding area while standing outside of it. Unfortunately I forgot I'd left it in gear; I just got to the cut-off switch before it hit the cars on the other side of the holding area...

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by graeme
The conveying 'round of cars is an excellent idea - anything to save time on the programme. I think its only 750MC who do this?

I think you're right.

I'm always suprised at the location of the holding area/parc ferme at Oulton - if they were the other way around, it would save a (slow) lap on each race...

The 'motor cycle return road' allows bikes to go back to the holding area immediately after the finish; the only downside for riders is that it denies them the chance to wave to the punters on their slowing-down lap.

[graeme]

I was more thinking of the "out" lap - you could go straight from the holding area to the grid, without doing a full lap. I'd miss a slowing down lap - wouldn't be able to toot at you lot!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by graeme
I was more thinking of the "out" lap - you could go straight from the holding area to the grid, without doing a full lap.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think that for club bike racing the normal parc fermé is used for assembly. As ACU rules insist that the sighting lap passes every flag point, it saves having to do almost two laps from assembly to grid.

I'd miss a slowing down lap - wouldn't be able to toot at you lot!

Pity you've all got such weedy little horns!

[graeme]

Trouble is, if you swapped the holding area and parc ferme at Oulton, it would be a long way from parc ferme to the scruntineering bay (and the weigh bridge). But the old scrutineering bay was towards Old Hall - did the two used to be the other way around?

Weedy little horn? I was looking at one which plays Colonel Boggy...

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by graeme
But the old scrutineering bay was towards Old Hall - did the two used to be the other way around?

A bit before my time! (I wish!)

Weedy little horn? I was looking at one which plays Colonel Boggy...

That'll do nicely!

[Startline1]

I susspect it may be different at each circuit, but at snett where the cars come up the pit lane and are held before starting practice we were often told to let the cars out in batches by race control to avoid a big group arriving at sears(2nd corner) all together.

Graeme, I know your quali time is limited, but did you not think of going around at a slower pace then taging on to the faster cars the next lap around.

[graeme]

Fair comment about slowing down for a lap - its physiological difficult to do! - I did actually try this, but the guys behind were too slow to slipstream - you need someone going at the same laptime as yourself, or preferably a little quicker.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by HiRich
- A clearer indication of timing would help. The green flag/wave-out can happen quite suddenly. Some drivers aren't in their cars. Others have been sitting there, cooking their engines. This especially applies in our cars, where the cars don't have starter motors - cue a panic getting 'drives' in the car & belted up, and then getting him on his way. A code (either 5/2/1min boards, or a flag/marker system for previous session finished/course car still out clearing up/ 2 minutes), would help. Even shouting and finger signals ("wreckage to collect - at least 5 minutes"; "nearly ready - 2 minutes") would be an improvement.

And Sheila, on the off-chance you did Holding at the 750MC October meet at Mallory, I was the push-starter who did a triple roll & bounced towards pit lane when the car fired & drove off from under me...

HiRich, I don't normally "do" the holding area as I'm usually Chief Pits but wherever possible I try to get the information through to the drivers if the assembly area marshals are a bit busy. At Mallory you have a fair chance of being ready on time when you see me stroll to the other side of the barrier and pick up my green flag! If you see me running up the pit lane and you are not in the car then you know you're going to miss the first lap of practice!