Yellow Flags and Infringements thereof

[diz]

A thorny one this.
With the sad demise of the black and yellow quartered flag, the Clerk of the Course now only has two options left.

1. Hope for driver cooperation and common sense while the incident is cleared, or made that bit safer for the qualifying or racing to continue.
2. Display the Red Flag, with the associated time delays to the programme and shortened qualifying or race time for the drivers.

The black and yellow quartered flag was intended to neutralise the track action with the whole field closing up behind the leader [who would be acting as a safety car and taking the field round at approximately 50mph]. If it had worked properly, the whole field would be condensed within a couple of hundred yards from leader to last man. This would have given the marshals 'safe time' on a clear track to deal with and clear the incident before going green again. A perfect concept, but beyond the comprehension of many drivers. If one or two didn't close up, the condensing of the field simply didn't happen. So we are now stuck with the aforementioned options one and two.

Compulsory Drivers Briefings were held at Oulton to explain that it was upto the drivers to cooperate and use common sense under yellow flag conditions and slow noticeably, not set their fastest lap with yellows out. Quite a few drivers had to be 'sourced' in the Paddock, as they hadn't even read their final instructions - this being a separate problem of its own.

All the drivers, from race nine at Oulton today,were summoned to a post race talking to from the Clerk. Quite a few didn't even bother to show up for this dressing down. I despair !!

Despite the senior officials - from their Race Control vantage point - seeing overtaking under yellows on the pit straight, no action could be taken as no observer reports were received.

One team manager rollocked his own driver for a crass piece of driving / overtaking under yellow, that he saw from the pit wall, no observer reports were received.

MST times proved that fastest laps were being achieved under yellow flag conditions.

I observed overtaking under an incorrectly displayed steady yellow [waved before incident, steady yellow post before - OK so far - and a second steady yellow before the first one]. This marshal did this twice.

So if reports aren't forthcoming, no action can be taken. I'm not too certain of my ground here, but I would think that 'senior officials' should be able to make their own reports and the necessary disciplinary action could then be taken. If the marshals on the ground fail to spot something, it doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

So, the message for any drivers who have bothered to read this far. Drive with your head, use common sense, think safety for both your fellow drivers and the marshals and don't expect every indiscretion to be noticed. Above all, drive within the regulations.

[johnw]

Diz
I, along with some other drivers, went to the BARC marshals training at Thruxton. We had the opportunity to explain why we needed reports of cr*p driving from the posts. It provoked quite a debate, but in essence, the marshals and observers agreed to tighten up in this area.
Hopefully we will not see a repeat of your Oulton experience.

I don't understand why the senior officials couldn't take action of their own. Certainly we have had an example in the past of a clerk handing out endorsements and fines despite there being no supporting report from the trackside.

No doubt we will be informed.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by diz
Despite the senior officials - from their Race Control vantage point - seeing overtaking under yellows on the pit straight, no action could be taken as no observer reports were received.

Hmmmmmm, why can't you fellas just deploy a Punto as a Safety Car (that'll slow em down). Is there something in your religion that denies you the use of a very powerful weapon to get control of things.

Hard to have an opinion on this particular race from thousands of clicks away, however, I have seen similar instances.

What are we supposed to do? Manage a yellow flag incident where a drivers life may be under threat or report the whole field for overtaking under yellow? How popular would Marshals be after that little exercise?

In this particular race it sounds like the Clerk of the Course should have thrown a Red or reassessed the "danger" and maybe requested that the Yellows be withdrawn.

[kartingdad]

Its all very well telling the drivers to drive within the regs, but perhaps the officials could stop making their own up as they go on.


I understand from a couple of drivers who attended the drivers sermon, the C of C is under the impression that once the leaders have passed the chequered flag, you have to let back markers come thru' as they are still racing!!!!

Additionally, I was also under the impression that once the race has been won, the yellows are waved anyway.

Perhaps ask the marshals to dust off their blue flags and use them.

Finally, my driver always slowed down for the yellows, he just went quicker everywhere else to make up.

[StephenRae]

I was third in the pre 90 race I tried slowing down a bit at Old Hall and all that achieved was to get the 4th place guy up my chuff. On the next lap I had to close the door at Old Hall (yellows still out) had I not done this I'm sure he woul have passed me. If either of the front two were the subject of the suspect overtaking manoeuveres does that mean I really won !!!!!!
Oh! its the first I've heard of a post race meeting..I was in the scrutineering bay getting Chris Chisnall's car through post race inspection.

[diz]

Originally posted by kartingdad
Its all very well telling the drivers to drive within the regs, but perhaps the officials could stop making their own up as they go on.

I understand from a couple of drivers who attended the drivers sermon, the C of C is under the impression that once the leaders have passed the chequered flag, you have to let back markers come thru' as they are still racing!!!!

Andy, How would you feel if you went onto your last lap with the race leaders just behind you about to take the chequered flag. They have finished racing, but you haven't. They then pass you on their slowing down lap and you have to follow them into parc ferme. You are therefore not classified as a finisher, your licence can't be signed etc.

Originally posted by kartingdad
Additionally, I was also under the impression that once the race has been won, the yellows are waved anyway.

No. Only if there is an incident worthy of a yellow will you see one on your slowing down lap. The exception is yellows to slow you down and guide you back into parc ferme. This is what you will see from your pit lane position.

Originally posted by kartingdad
Perhaps ask the marshals to dust off their blue flags and use them.

Agreed. Many drivers complain to me that the standard of blue flagging is in terminal decline.

Originally posted by kartingdad
Finally, my driver always slowed down for the yellows, he just went quicker everywhere else to make up.

I'd expect nothing less from a son of one so knowledgeable in all matters of the marshalling type.

We have had many threads to do with drivers doing a days marshalling. How about one for dads, managers, team personnel etc. having to spend a day on the bank

[diz]

Originally posted by StephenRae
Oh! its the first I've heard of a post race meeting..I was in the scrutineering bay getting Chris Chisnall's car through post race inspection.

Steve, it went out on the tannoy, but the Oulton tannoy has many deaf spots.
BTW why were you - a one man team - assisting the massed ranks of Mike Waite Racing in getting their car through post race inspection?
Read Ian Sowman's report on www.clubff1600.co.uk to see his comparison of you and Bruce Evans

[StephenRae]

Originally posted by diz
Steve, it went out on the tannoy, but the Oulton tannoy has many deaf spots.
BTW why were you - a one man team - assisting the massed ranks of Mike Waite Racing in getting their car through post race inspection
Read Ian Sowman's report on www.clubff1600.co.uk to see his comparison of you and Bruce Evans

I was there and I'm a nice guy at heart!
Ian Sowman certainly writes a good report.. I am rather flattered by the commentator's comparison of my driving with that of Bruce Evans.
You didn't comment on my other point.. as Bruce would say...Did I win the F...ing thing or not!

[kartingdad]

Oh well Diz, at least you agreed with me about the blue flags!

[Stephen Green]

Hmmm, if there were no Observers reports on overtaking under yellow flags can I ask if there was any TV or video footage that the Clerks could have used? Sadly at times if the Observer (and I am one) is busy writing a report on an incident, he may miss the second one. Just a passing thought. Blue flagging is something we in the Marshals Club are trying to address, it is obvious that it is not always up to standard and I make no excuses for that, traing should help to address the problem although I don't think it's something new.

If any team members wish to spend a day marshalling to see what it's like from our (marshals) point of view, they would be welcomed. For my last two meetings (FPA and BTCC yesterday) I have had a driver on post with me and I can say it has opened their eyes in both cases. I'm not trying to say marshals are infallible because they are not, but it does give a different preception on what we do if you see it for yourself. Anyone who wishes to spend a day on post with me is welcome, send me a PM.

With regard to fastest or faster laps being done under yellow flags, then the C of the C has the timing sheets to use as ammunition when attending to the problem. As a marshal I would want and expect full support from the C of the C in making my excursions trackside as safe as possible.

Diz and Kartingdad, come spend a day with me, I promise it will be enjoyable even if you have to sweep the track occasionally

[Stephen Green]

I must remember to do a spell check before I post next time

ps...If you do spend a day marshalling with me, I will let the blue flag marshal let you have a go at flagging, I promise its not as easy as you might think.

[diz]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Hmmm, if there were no Observers reports on overtaking under yellow flags can I ask if there was any TV or video footage that the Clerks could have used?

Diz and Kartingdad, come spend a day with me, I promise it will be enjoyable even if you have to sweep the track occasionally

Stephen, TV or video footage? we are talking Oulton Park here !!!!!!!!!

I agree that kartingdad should try it. No thanks for me though. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. I used to marshal for many years, was a committee member of the old BMRMC in the NW. And I got the Kennard Trophy for Marshal of the Year in 1969 without needing to resort to attacking members of the public who had got lost due to the inadequate signage at Sillystone

Believe me, I am on your side, but with my various involvements over the years, I can see things from many angles. I promise you - as mentioned in a PM to you a few weeks ago - that next time I venture to Brands [these days only the FF Festival] I will look you up and have a long chat.

[dhart]

Diz, i was waiting for the tannoy calling the yellow flag offenders up and there definitely wasnt one, so i am not surprised no one turned up!
As far as the overtaking under yellows is concerned, how did the observers not see it? the two cars in question were in first and second position , if the observers aint watching the leaders what are they watching, they are the first cars every lap!, the CofC saw it and has the time sheets as proof to at least have a word, im sure if called up both would have admitted it! ( one with a good excuse the other without)
And as for not seeing the cars numbers, well they were the first two cars round so, so working out who they are is not rocket science, even for an non observant observer! I have yet to meet an observer that saw anything!
The marshalls were working on the crashed car in a very exposed position, they need protection and the lack of any action is wrong, i wouldnt go out there in a NW FF race again if i were a marshal, i would demand a red,and send em home......can you imagine the great Don at mallory a few years ago seeing that past his front window and not having a queue of drivers outside his office after the race , with or without a report .... no me neither.


Formula Fords ....DONT DO IT!

[brsccnw]

Having discussed this with Diz it has been agreed that we will hold a mandatory briefing again at the next meeting 15th May before practice, to discuss the matter of the yellow flags at the 24 April meeting and the action that will be taken at future meetings.

[jminsh]

If cars are to slow down (and i know they should under a yellow flag)why not get the marshalls to wave the odd Slippery surface Flag. That seemed to get hold of everyones attention in qualifying after the Hackett oil spraying system had been deployed !!!! .

[blue nose]

Please make this one interesting as we cant remember what the last one was about lol
Any chance of Don holding the meeting?

[50-SIX]

I now always slow up under yellows. Last year I got a b**locking for not doing so in qualifying, and it made me think a bit. But also, it is up to the officials to make sure the drivers guilty of not slowing up get penalised, so that the drivers that do slow don't get disavdvantaged on the track. Its hard when your battling with someone and the yellows comeout to know whether they will slow up as well, if they don't and they get passed you but don't get penalised in anyway its gonna make drivers think twice about slowing up the next yellow situation, with the mentality of "Well he doesn't slow up so why should I". The officials and observers need to get their arses into gear and get the guilty drivers penalised.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally posted by 50-SIX
The officials and observers need to get their arses into gear and get the guilty drivers penalised.

The Observers can only report what they see!
It is entirely up to the CofC as to what "Punishment" is doled out!

[50-SIX]

And one more thing, are these briefings necessary?! It was like an introduction briefing at a race school. We all no the rules, if they are properly enforced then, trust me, drivers WILL slow for yellows. But until a few people have been made an example of, you can have as many briefings as you like, drivers won't pay attention. Drivers tend not to listen to ticking offs by an official at the beginning of every meeting, I bet they would listen to a 10-sec penalty at the end of one!

[50-SIX]

Originally posted by observer
The Observers can only report what they see!
It is entirely up to the CofC as to what "Punishment" is doled out!

But there was no observer report filed, yet everyone on the pitwall could see it happening. It was left to a team owner to point it out to his driver! I'm not saying all observers do a bad job, Observer. But if everyone else on the pitwall could see this happening then why can't the officials. The CofC is in a tower 'observing' this exact spot.

Marshals do a great job, and without there time, effort and bravery the race meetings wouldn't be possible. It needs to be made a safe a job as possible. It makes me laugh when a drivers car comes to a stop at a dangerous point on the circuit, they get out and leg it! I do it myself. This is the only time we get the perspective of a marshal. I know Mike Mullins marshals sometimes, I bet he slows up under yellows as he knows what it can be like.

[Chigley]

I don't know what briefing the FBMW drivers were given at Brands, but with Ian Watson as C of C, I imagine it was enlightening. During the incident at Druids the pace dropped dramatically as they went passed even though they were behind a safety car to such an extent that those at the rear of the field actually came to full stop. This wsn't a one off either as they slowed dramatically at Thruxton whilst going passed yellow flag incidents. Good for them, I hope other series take note and follow their example.
Can you imagine BTCC or FR giving marshals that consideration whilst one of their fellow drivers was extracted from a nasty one. Not a chance. So what if the person behind you gets right up your chuff, you're there to race. It would have happened with the battenburg, full course yellow or safety car, SO SLOW DOWN and not just by 5mph!!!

[jminsh]

Here here Steve Make an example and people will take note. Stop being so PC about everthing if it's as Blatent as it was in the pre 90 race the powers at be shouldn't need a piece paper with an observers report on it, just a big F**K gun to strap themselves into and start firing drivers to the back of grid at the next round or something else with a bit of clout, fines just don't work.

[blue nose]

How about if passing under yellows is done in qualifying then you should start from the back of the grid with a ten second penalty if it is done in a race you get a black flag or excluded from the result.

[diz]

Originally posted by blue nose
How about if passing under yellows is done in qualifying then you should start from the back of the grid with a ten second penalty if it is done in a race you get a black flag or excluded from the result.

This is basically what should happen, but no reports = no punishment.
Also, it is all well and good the drivers / owners being in agreement now, but come the day when they, or their boy, gets 'done' the appeals will start, along the lines of "technically yes there wasn't sufficient slowing, or the overtaking was unavoidable" etc.

[StephenRae]

I have a vested interest in this particular controversy so I should be bound to agree that both of the front two should be shot at dawn.
However I think that doing away with the black and yellow 'pace car flag' was a big mistake. In the main it worked well, those who did not 'bunch up' should have been black flagged immediately.
The marshalls have to be safeguarded but I don't think it is fair to put the onus totally on the drivers until some consistency is achieved in applying the rules by observers and CoCs