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7 Dec 2008, 19:02 (Ref:2349734) | #1 | |
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ACO costs = Grand Am gain?
just a pondering but will ACO series related costs push more competitors into grand am?
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7 Dec 2008, 19:28 (Ref:2349753) | #2 | ||
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i can't see how. it's no cheaper to run there competitively than it would be to run an LMP or GT in the ALMS, plus there's absolutely no fan support or media support, so you've got very little to offer sponsors...
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have a nice diurnal anomaly... |
7 Dec 2008, 19:59 (Ref:2349777) | #3 | ||
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7 Dec 2008, 20:58 (Ref:2349809) | #4 | |||
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Quote:
- steel brakes - very limited testing - tires: limited number of sets per weekend and same tire for all. Media support isn't that bad for GA, either: The start of the last two 24hrs at Daytona on FOX got ratings of .9, whereas ALMS usually gets between .4 and .7 on network television, ALMS however has a lot more network TV-time. From what I've heard, there's not much difference between the ALMS' and Grand Am's ratings on Speed TV. Alexa.com-ratings for Grand-Am.com and americanlemans.com and indycar.com So Indycar kills both ALMS and Grand Am, but the two sportscar-series are not that far apart, while the Rolex24 generates much more interest among the members of Alexa's database than Sebring or PLM. Le Mans and the 24hours at the Ring however dwarf the Rolex24. |
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7 Dec 2008, 21:19 (Ref:2349827) | #5 | ||
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Changing series cost money (new cars, etc...). So is difficult to do.
Another aspect that came out of the F1 to sportscar thread was a feeling that all series lose out if money is short. Maybe if you have a presence in more than one series you stop the expensive one? Or the one with the worse return for costs. However if you only have a presence in one, changing is difficult. |
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Brum brum |
7 Dec 2008, 21:43 (Ref:2349852) | #6 | ||
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Another thought:
If the current economic crisis turns into a full-blown multi-year depression, Grand Am could always bring back the SGS-class and let Koni Challenge GS-cars with less ballast, the GA-spec-wing and Pirellis run in the Rolex series. IMSA did that in the early nineties, when the Kelly American Challenge cars were renamed GTO and ran with the GTS and GTU cars. |
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7 Dec 2008, 22:36 (Ref:2349888) | #7 | ||
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Alexa.com is an absolutely meaningless measuring device.
According to teams that run, or have run in both series, operating costs between the two series are almost the same. Equipment costs are obviously more expensive in the ALMS. |
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7 Dec 2008, 22:54 (Ref:2349900) | #8 | |
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My first impression would be that the ALMS has much more international coverage than Grand Am. I can only think that this would influence your team's status and the type for sponsors, so you should try and make this work to your advantage.
But I'm a sportscar enthusiast so I pay a disproportionate amount of attention to the ALMS than other American motorsports and am probably not a good example to read from! |
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7 Dec 2008, 23:12 (Ref:2349913) | #9 | ||
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However, most US racing efforts are sponsored by American companies who probably couldn't care less about international marketing. I still don't think that Grand-Am would be more attractive than the ALMS though. Didn't the bear expect the Daytona grid to be about half of last year's? |
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8 Dec 2008, 00:22 (Ref:2349947) | #10 | ||
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Quote:
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have a nice diurnal anomaly... |
8 Dec 2008, 00:41 (Ref:2349959) | #11 | |||
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Quote:
Alexa has a toolbar that, um really isn't useful. Alexa.com measures internet usage, amongst people who have the Alexa toolbar installed. In a test, about a dozen users installed the Alexa toolbar, and very quickly made a very small website appear to have traffic in the multiples of what a site such at Indy Car's gets... |
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8 Dec 2008, 01:38 (Ref:2349980) | #12 | ||
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In economies like these, privateers are king. Carmakers are nice and make beautiful cars, but they have to ultimately answer to boards of directors and their support for racing ebbs and flows. Privateers on the other hand, most of them fully accept the fact they'll never win and yet spend the money anyway for the sole reason they love it.
ALMS' biggest problem, and this has been true for a long time, is there is no decent-cost privateer car that the carmakers will support outside of Porsche and Ferrari in GT2. So GrandAm might not gain much, but they have the privateers and everyone watches ALMS for Audi, Porsche, Acura, Corvette, and the GT2 battle. Two of those are gone next year and Corvette will get merged into the GT2 battle. Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 8 Dec 2008 at 01:43. |
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8 Dec 2008, 01:43 (Ref:2349983) | #13 | ||
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Just as a side note, it is my expectation that Grand Am will see percentage losses in entry this year, that aren't too far off of the ALMS. They started with a larger base, so it would appear to be more palatable to the fans that they have.
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8 Dec 2008, 17:48 (Ref:2350393) | #14 | ||
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Quote:
A Grand Am team owner says interest from "gentleman drivers" has all but dried up, and that there will be far fewer drivers from other racing series at the Daytona 24. The Rolex 24 grid is going to be down about 30% in one year; Sebring will see a similar decline. Looking at events after those two majors, both series seem to be headed for big hits. There was more than one respondent in the "Cost of Racing" series linked above that has competed in Grand Am and ALMS. None said that there was a significant difference in cost. An example is the "spec tire" in Grand Am; in fact the cost per set is not much different than the tire cost in ALMS. Travel is higher. The cost of "hardware" on net (buy, race, sell) is only marginally different, not enough to impact a decision. The real difference, to the extent there is one, is first year cash flow cost, which is less in Grand Am, and engine lease cost, also lower there). But when you take those things across a three-year program, you can't get a huge difference. One respondent offered that typical DP repair costs are not less than LMP repair costs; both have carbon fiber body panels, and those panels have similar cost. The bottom line is that ALL racing is going to be severely impacted here. They all share one common part of their "business models" that overwhelms any differences: individual teams - and series - are dependent on sponsorship dollars to operate. When those dollars get tight, it's survival of the fittest. If there is a shortage, I'd expect that the big NASCAR teams to do the best....when those sponsors get short they get opportunities to go where they want, and at less cost than before - so naturally they will go "to the top" if they can. Unfortunately for Grand Am, the movement from the bottom to the top of the NASCAR "food chain" is probably easier and quicker than the movement between series and kinds of racing. That's not necessarily good news for ALMS, because the "time difference" may be negligible. How important is the sponsorship issue? I believe DHL started the whole collapse of the Porsche Spyder program; without DHL walking, I doubt you get everything that followed. Audi said they would continue with its full ALMS program if it could find a "third party" sponsor. They couldn't. Think about that for a while. If Audi can't find a partner, then what do you expect from a gentleman who made some money in what? Real estate? The stock market? Commodities? |
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8 Dec 2008, 18:25 (Ref:2350401) | #15 | ||||
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A successful racing series has to be a good venture for both the carmaker and the privateer. I love racing, but one must admit that in times like these it's an easy target when people are losing their jobs. My own company is partly connected to the automotive industry and we're in relatively good shape financially and yet have still laid off 500 people. Carmakers will always have to answer to a public interest and therefore they cannot be counted on to support a series ad infinitum. Privateers on the other hand are usually teams fronted by rich individuals and while they are not entirely insulated from economic concerns, they are far more insulated than a carmaker. Quote:
Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 8 Dec 2008 at 18:31. |
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8 Dec 2008, 18:53 (Ref:2350417) | #16 | ||
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Why do you think Aucra is upset? Where have they said they're scaling back?
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8 Dec 2008, 19:13 (Ref:2350427) | #17 | |||||
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Quote:
Quote:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72359 Quote:
And another point to Tom I forgot in my original post, Audi could not find a sponsor for their car and got out. So it doesn't work for the carmakers in this economy, and you believe it doesn't work for the privateers. So who does ALMS work for? Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 8 Dec 2008 at 19:17. |
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8 Dec 2008, 19:22 (Ref:2350430) | #18 | |
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8 Dec 2008, 19:26 (Ref:2350434) | #19 | ||
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Quote:
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8 Dec 2008, 19:39 (Ref:2350446) | #20 | ||
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You can go on and on, and I could go to Grand Am or IRL, or any racing series; in that regard, though look at lost sponsors: US Navy, Kodak, DHL, Ruby Tuesday, and many more, not necessarily associated with the Automotive sector. The truth is that ALL motorsport funding is tied to some industry. Over time, there's no particular reason to expect that the automotive sector will (or has) performed any worse than any other. Historically, your argument has merit for one reason: diversification. That is, to the extent that the field is supported in agreggate by the money of a wide range of industries and parts of the economy, it has some "insulatiion." That's the real reason underlying the apparent success over time of "privateers" as a group (though not individually, since gentlemen and teams come and go as routinely as anyone else). But diversification is helpful only when economic stress is localized, e.g., there are some "good" sectors. The problem we have now is there are no "good" sectors in the economy - and world-wide no "safe" geographies. What then? The second part comes from your inherent faith in "privateers." Jon Field? What would make you think that Jon Field is a competitor in 2009? Maybe, maybe not, but where does the money come from? Banana Joe's? Richard Berry's exotic car "business?" This time, there is no place to hide. |
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8 Dec 2008, 19:48 (Ref:2350450) | #21 | ||
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Flyin Ryan:
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That's true for DEI and Ganassi, for Childress, for NASCAR/ISC, for IndyCar, for Audi, and for ALMS. What I don't buy is the distinction, the belief that one business model is inherently better in this circumstance than another. They all rest on manufacturers, on third party sponsorship, and on the fortunes of individuals in some combination. This time, no part of that that appears particularly more secure than any other. |
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8 Dec 2008, 20:08 (Ref:2350460) | #22 | |||||
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L.P. Last edited by HORNDAWG; 8 Dec 2008 at 20:12. |
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Probae esti in segetem sunt deteriorem datae fruges, tamen ipsae suaptae enitent |
8 Dec 2008, 20:27 (Ref:2350467) | #23 | ||||
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That leaves you Rob Dyson, Acura and Corvette currently, and the privateer battle in GT2. So maybe 15 or so cars. Quote:
Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 8 Dec 2008 at 20:36. |
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8 Dec 2008, 20:45 (Ref:2350471) | #24 | ||
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Woof. This old dog is sitting this barking contest out.
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
8 Dec 2008, 20:47 (Ref:2350472) | #25 | |
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Has everybody forgotten Acura has something in hand that Audi didn't really have and stated they were looking for to run all season? I'm guessing Shell was more of a partner than sponsor and they weren't ready to pick up the whole tab. Multiple teams and full sponsorship deals at Acura may make them somewhat more stable as a pseudo-factory effort and I'm sure not running a car in the class promised to Patron and Panasonic would violate their sponsorship agreement and cost Acura as much money as testing a new car and could cost them the sponsor later.
As for the MotoGP and Indycar comment, don't both of those series run at least one event in Japan? Thus a Japanese reporter asking about both series wouldn't be out of the question. Not asking about the ALMS would make sense to me as it's not run in Japan and who knows if the Asian Le Mans challenge, or whatever it was to be called, will ever leave the ground. |
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