Oil, and its Effect on Auto Racing in the Future

[Ferrari333SP]

I couldn't put this in Parc Ferme, so I'd thought I'd put this here, considering this is a high traffic part of the forum. I've posted this on the ALMS site forum as well.

There was a film released a little while ago, called "A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash," that I just finished finished watching. http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/ As I was watching, I wondered, assuming oil production is at its peak, or soon will be, what the future will be like for the auto racing industry. With oil supplies ever dwindling in the future, and possible rationing taking place, how will our beloved sport of racing adapt? Will some series' cease to exist, will some adapt completely new engines that don't use gasoline, will some be forced to shut down? The use of diesel engines, in cars such as the Audi R10, are a step in the right direction, but what more needs to be done? Being that racing uses ghastly amounts of oil, will the industry be a high target for accusation? I haven't really thought about this before, and haven't seen it discussed before, so I'd thought I'd bring it up.

What are all your thoughts?

[Speed-King]

While race cars use a lot of fuel, racing has just a extremely tiny percentage on the oil consumption in the world. So I think that racing has not much to fear as long as fossil fuels are still freely available. The biggest part of the fuel consumed on a professional race weekend is probably by the specators who travel long distances to the tracks by car.

On the other hand: Endurance racing has always been a testbed of new technology, so I'm all in favor for proving the sportiveness(or the lack thereof) of the various kinds of alternative fuels in racing before we run out of gas and have to look for those alternatives all of a sudden. Racing could also help those alternative fuels to gain acceptance in the market for performance road cars.

And finally: A good numer of series, namely IRL and Champcar have nothing to fear as they already run on renewable fuels.

[GORDON STREETER]

Have you read on Racers Forum " You want to hurl abuse at a journo "

[gwyllion]

It would be interesting to know how much fuel was used during the 24 hours of Le Mans because to a transatlantic flight

[FLGTFAN]

The winning Audi completed 369 laps in 35 pit stops.

369 x 13.65 km = 5037 km (3137 mi).

5037 km / 35 = 144

144 km / 80 litres = 1.8 km/l

1.8 x 5037 km = 9067 litres

So with practice and qualy, it's roughly 10,000 liters (2642 gallons).

That would fuel most passenger cars for 176 fill-ups, or roughly 3.4 years (one fill-up/week, 52 weeks/yr). Please forgive me if my math is flawed.

[vorsprung]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

The winning Audi completed 369 laps in 35 pit stops.

369 x 13.65 km = 5037 km (3137 mi).

5037 km / 35 = 144

144 km / 80 litres = 1.8 km/l

1.8 x 5037 km = 9067 litres

So with practice and qualy, it's roughly 10,000 liters (2642 gallons).

That would fuel most passenger cars for 176 fill-ups, or roughly 3.4 years (one fill-up/week, 52 weeks/yr). Please forgive me if my math is flawed.

Just a little error, should be: 5037km / 1,8km/l = 2800 litres
A 13 lap stint gives diesel consumption of 2,2 km/l

[Ferrari333SP]

Just imagine how much fuel is used total during the whole week at the Nurburgring 24 Hours.

[gwyllion]

This is what the Audi press release said:

The winning car completed a total of 369 laps (eleven less than last year). This equates to a distance of 5,029.11 kilometres at an average speed of 209.152 kph.

On average, the Audi drivers returned to the pits every 12 laps to refuel. Owing to the faster lap times, the average fuel consumption was 42.19 litres / 100 km of Shell V-Power Diesel.

source: http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_3258.shtml

So that would give 42.19 x 5029.11 / 100 = 2122 liters.

As a comparison: a Boeing 747 burns around 4 liters/sec, so during a international 10 hour flight it will use 150000 liters (according to http://www.howstuffworks.com/question192.htm)

That is 70 times more than the winning Audi used. So during the whole 24 hours of Le Mans perhaps the same amount of oil is wasted as 1 transatlantic flight.

I hope this puts things into perspective

[Tim the Grey]

In about 1990, I think, someone worked out that an entire Formula 1 season of fuel equalled 1 Jumbo flying London - New York.
Of course, this doesn't account for the Jumbos flying the teams TO where they used this fuel, but racing is a tiny percentage of mankind's total fuel bill.

However, I am all in favour of racing forcing the pace of alternative power sources developement.
Bio Diesels, ethanol/methanol, hydrogen, electric, fuel cell, sail, whatever!

Let's find out which gives the performance people need in the real world, not in some Eco Nutters sackcloth and ashes mindset.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

However, I am all in favour of racing forcing the pace of alternative power sources developement.
Bio Diesels, ethanol/methanol, hydrogen, electric, fuel cell, sail, whatever!

Let's find out which gives the performance people need in the real world, not in some Eco Nutters sackcloth and ashes mindset.

Hell yes, I remember about ten years ago when I saw hundreds of acres of dry brown knee high corn stalks in August because of lack of rain.
Some with irrigagion, irrigated till the river they pumped from was so low it stopped running in places and the state STOP.

Heck yes lets promote some other pie-in-the-sky farce so polliticians can use it to scam the ignorant public and stay in office.
We all know those new technologies are self supporting, they create more than they use.
Waters plentiful so lets waste it on something really stupid.

Oil is cheap and plentiful so lets screw up the environment with a few hair brained ideas rather than ruin the view of those poor souls who live on a shorline that has oil fields.
By the time reality sets in we will be dead or retired.
Bob

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Ferrari333SP

I couldn't put this in Parc Ferme, so I'd thought I'd put this here, considering this is a high traffic part of the forum. I've posted this on the ALMS site forum as well.

There was a film released a little while ago, called "A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash," that I just finished finished watching. http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/ As I was watching, I wondered, assuming oil production is at its peak, or soon will be, what the future will be like for the auto racing industry. With oil supplies ever dwindling in the future, and possible rationing taking place, how will our beloved sport of racing adapt? Will some series' cease to exist, will some adapt completely new engines that don't use gasoline, will some be forced to shut down? The use of diesel engines, in cars such as the Audi R10, are a step in the right direction, but what more needs to be done? Being that racing uses ghastly amounts of oil, will the industry be a high target for accusation? I haven't really thought about this before, and haven't seen it discussed before, so I'd thought I'd bring it up.

What are all your thoughts?

Pure and simple BS. Just like the childrens story of Chicken Little. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling, we are running out of oil, we are running out of oil"



The amount of ( read these words) Usable, accesable, and refiable oil in the world is stagering. IE we are not running out. Plus the amount or Usable, not-yet accesable and refiable oil is even greater then the accesable oil. ( Canada, Off the coast or Virgina, NC and eastern Gulf of Mex ) Source: USGS

There are so many untapped or undrilled but known oil researves in the world that oil in the forseable future ( next 1000 years even at 100x current daily consumption the world will not run out of oil.

Technolgy is doing a great job on reducing the polutions and sulfer contents of petrolium.

What is needed are new refineries that do a more efficent job.

Bio-fuels are still needed for areas of the world that can grow corn and soybeans in large quanties then refine these into ethonal based fuels.

[dj choc ice]

well the oil will run out sooner or later but not for a very long time, by the time it does run out i will be dead and buried and wont really be able to care because ill be 6 foot under .

but on a serious note, bio fuels are the future but the problem of crop rotation and land use is something worrying, bio fuels shouldnt completely substitute fossil fuels because the effects will quite simply not be worth thinking about.

hydrogen looks the way to go, the experimental hydrogen powered mazda RX8 is a damn fine example, i think the audi R10 and peugeot 908 HDI FAP are not a step in the right direction, yes they consume less fuel than the petrol car's but only a small margin, they are more harmful to the enviroment diesel's are and that defies the point of 'going green'.

i dont think hybrid's are the way forward either, they dont seem to be much more fuel efficient and dont seem to be so called 'carbon friendly' and what do we do with all of those big batteries aftwerwards?, they aint exactly going to help the so called 'green' cause either.

best options looks to be a mix of ethanol fossil fuels, E30, E40, E50 etc etc and hydrogen fuel, electric is not viable imo as it generate's danger's like noise (they are that quiet it would be difficult to hear them when for example crossing the road which is something rather damn dangerous) the batteries run out very quickly and i refuse to trail cable's across the road to a car park at 2 in the morning to recharge it.

best option imo viably.

keep fossil fuels in the loop, use it in conjuction with ethanol and other bio fuels but not too much as it would severly effect crop rotation and the reuse of land for farming in the literal sense, i.e food and livestock.

hydrogen powered internal combustion engine's seem to be very good, definetely a good idea, hybrid's in the short term are ok but in the long term are not good at all due to those batteries on them running out and how to dispose of them.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

best option imo viably.

keep fossil fuels in the loop, use it in conjuction with ethanol and other bio fuels but not too much as it would severly effect crop rotation and the reuse of land for farming in the literal sense, i.e food and livestock.

hydrogen powered internal combustion engine's seem to be very good, definetely a good idea, hybrid's in the short term are ok but in the long term are not good at all due to those batteries on them running out and how to dispose of them.

I agree with this direction.

If you live in the US MILK & Beef prices are skyrocketing do the corn going to bio fuels refining vs cattle feed.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

If you live in the US MILK & Beef prices are skyrocketing do the corn going to bio fuels refining vs cattle feed.

So true, and yet bio fuels aren't making a dent in the consumer cost at the pumps...

No funny business going on there...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Pure and simple BS. Just like the childrens story of Chicken Little. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling, we are running out of oil, we are running out of oil"



The amount of ( read these words) Usable, accesable, and refiable oil in the world is stagering. IE we are not running out. Plus the amount or Usable, not-yet accesable and refiable oil is even greater then the accesable oil. ( Canada, Off the coast or Virgina, NC and eastern Gulf of Mex ) Source: USGS

Clearly you have NOT seen "A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash" Oil consumption is peaking, oil production will be insufficient in the forseable future and no energy alternative is currently available.

[Speed-King]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

just to make sure everybody knows what we're talking about.
Peak oil is at the moment a theory and just that. It may be true or it may be wrong, but the only way to prove it will be in hindsight. While it is supported by a number of top-notch scientists there are at least as much scientist who say that it won't happen or is still far off.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Clearly you have NOT seen "A Crude Awakening: The Oil Crash" Oil consumption is peaking, oil production will be insufficient in the forseable future and no energy alternative is currently available.

Yes I have. More rubbish. If you tell a lie long enoughand in different forms ppl will believe it.


Thank you Speed King for the wiki link

[dj choc ice]

practically mirroring what AU said, it is very much government motivated and made to scare people.

if you stick at something like this for long enough then you will most assureadly scare people, drum it into them and people will believe it whether it is true or not.

much of this is a good excuse to tax people even more than the government already is, anyone with half a brain will see through this.

much of the policies the government are pushing such as 'road pricing' and increased car taxes do simply use the excuse of 'saving the planet', such a good image, shame its just a natural cycle and what the gov' is saying is mainly complete and utter crap.

however though the whole thing of stopping using fossil fuels aint going to happen, there is far too much to lose especially for governments and for some extremely affluent people (OPEC springs to mind instantly).

you can literally say it this way, go ethanol we can starve, go hybrid engine's we can practically have a big envirmental problem on our hands about 20 year's or less down the line when the batteries start to go poopy and then, BANG, we have millions and millions of dead batteries we have to get rid off and how to dispose of them and that will present a big problem.

hydrogen seems damn viable yet it would take time to implement it properly and to be honest its still pretty damn experimental but i think its viable this will begin to appear in the next 15-30 years maybe even sooner.

[Speed-King]

let's not confuse "peak oil" with global warming, DJ.
As I said before is a theory that is supported by some scientists and by some not. But I think there's at least a possibility that it may happen as it is supported by a good number of people that should know what they are talking about.

I think this possibility should be taken serious and the necessary precautions should be taken. Maybe one can comapre this to driving a car. A lot of people drive their cars for decades without ever getting into a crash, but still they put on the safety belts when they drive. Why? Because there is a possibility for having an accident.
I think we should as well put on the "safety belts" when it comes to the possible decline of the oil supply. Why not invest into alternative sources, just in case that...? If the peak oil guys are proven to have been wrong, we will at least have a more diverse energy supply than now and will be less depended on dubious mid-eastern countries and probably pay less at the gas station.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

If you live in the US MILK & Beef prices are skyrocketing do the corn going to bio fuels refining vs cattle feed.

There is actually a percentage of the feed prices going up, due to incremental increases in demand for corn/soy.. being used for bio fuels, but the percentage of incremental demand for the same feed is much larger due to increases in Meat consumption in China and India (and region).

Nobody is really certain how much oil is in the ground, but it is most certainly a limited quantity. What we are sure of, is that the Sweet Oil production is diminishing at a rather rapid rate. The replacement of this Sweet Oil, is coming from Oil Sands, Heavy Oils, and other much more costly methodologies of production. At the present time, Big Oil just is unwilling to build more refineries, based upon the current cost vs. return (risk) they would provide.

As far as the original question, as long as there are automobiles being produced, there will be racing. If Oil becomes expensive enough (and further technological advances are made), other sources of power will become more economically viable, than they are now.

Meanwhile, China had an y/y growth of Automobile purchases of approximately 23%, making them the second largest purchasers of Auto's in the world. This incremental purchasing, leading to increased Oil consumption, is just not being met by the world's refinining capabilities.

[AU N EGL]

Yes Speed King I agree.

Personally I believe Global Warming is more rubish propigated by short sightness people and scientists and not looking at the 25, 100, 1000, 10,000 and million temperature year cycles of the earth. Plus several Other factors.

There are many geo-political challanges as well.

However, we as humans should not go crazy. We need to be stewarts of our planet. Just not take for granted this "Sky is Falling" crap.

[chewymonster]

dj

Hybrid batteries are not a problem and diesels are not any worse for the environment than gasoline engines.

The R10 used up fuel at a rate of a big rig. But there are only 3 R10s racing and many more big rigs. Which in a perfect world would be replaced by much more energy efficient trains.

[PascaLM]

Soon we will have bioethanol and electric engines at Le Mans ! This will be the great challenge for manufacturers ! Yeah !

[The Badger]

Oh god ..... no !!!

They'll have one running on cow **** soon enough !!!

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Oh god ..... no !!!

They'll have one running on cow **** soon enough !!!