cleaning the off track bits?

[Bodysnatcher]

Watching the Spanish GP saturday morning session now.

Just tuned in after the red came out for the Sauber in the wall and the Renault that did the same a few seconds later.
Marshals were out brushing out the little puddles of water from betweeen the ripple strips that probably caused the loss of control. OK good remedial work, but then commentator was going on about how the marshals should maybe have spotted this before the session started and cleaned it up then. (possibly he just said this because it's primarily radio commentry and he has to keep talking about ..something.)

Excuse me..I know the track has to be pristine to the molecular level for F1, but little pools of water in the gaps between the shiny ripple strips that are outside the white lines.
Oh me oh my..
one has to ask, how much outside of the white lines should be "cleaned"?

PS for our older contributors/readers..looks like all the marshals are in orange long sleeved overalls and are wearing helmets
never mind banning scanners just think of the outrage if we all have to wear helmets at the GP

[Bodysnatcher]

thank you Martin Brundle!

the other one has mentioned it again "should the marshals do more"?

Straight answer from Martin "No!"

suspicions that MB reads 10ths (know alex did),4 over white line topic brought up

[mini1400]

Yeah, was surprised at the number of 4WO at turn 7... I wonder how many laps were dissalowed.....

[mmm_five]

Surely the times recorded for the cars that were '4 wheels off' should be discounted from the qualifying results? I don't know how many times I saw various drivers completely the wrong side of the solid white line.

[Tal Aras]

The commentary team during practice thought that the cars aren't quite getting all four wheels off. The also reckoned that Charlie Whiting would have a word with the drivers if they were running all four wheels off.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

Excuse me..I know the track has to be pristine to the molecular level for F1, but little pools of water in the gaps between the shiny ripple strips that are outside the white lines.
Oh me oh my..
one has to ask, how much outside of the white lines should be "cleaned"?

So you would leave a piece of jagged metal just of the track? I think not! The "track" in my opinion stretches all the way to the tyre wall/armco/wall and should be kept in "prestine condition" not only for F1 but all meetings right down to the humble clubbie.

The "little pools of water" were considerably more than that and should have been swept BEFORE the session started.

[alimcb]

Last weekend at FIA GT it was easier to count the cars that weren't using the run-off as their normal line through Club during some of the GT3/GT4/F3 sessions. It was happening so much that it was clear nothing was being done about it by race control. The GT1s were better behaved but were still running wide occasionally, a clear indication they had no great fear about taking the corner too quickly.

There has to be an automatic penalty for using run-off and the best penalty is forcing the drivers to go over a strip of grass or astroturf - something that's guaranteed to slow them down and give them a bit of fear of damaging the car. Even just robbing them of a few tenths of a second is enough to make it not worth running wide. Although, honestly speaking, I'd rather see gravel.

Charlie Whiting has the benefit of extensive TV camera coverage to be able to identify drivers who use run-off. When you've got 20 or 30 cars doing it every lap, that's not practical. The run-off effectively becomes part of the circuit.

From a marshalling point of view, it is another risk we need to consider. Yellow flags offer no protection if the drivers have decided the run-off is part of the track. Under yellows either they will keep running wide (as some did last weekend) or they will try to keep it between the white lines and risk spinning out as they aren't used to the line they have to take.

[cowchap]

Probably got this wrong but did'nt Stirling Moss once say something along the lines of
'when there were trees on the edge of the track we never ran wide'

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Stack

So you would leave a piece of jagged metal just of the track? I think not! The "track" in my opinion stretches all the way to the tyre wall/armco/wall and should be kept in "prestine condition" not only for F1 but all meetings right down to the humble clubbie.

The "little pools of water" were considerably more than that and should have been swept BEFORE the session started.

Did I say anything about leaving debris? I think not!

The question was about how far we should clean? You take the stance that everything should be. Fair enough.
I'm obviously a slack, lazy *******, I'd only get my team to clean (note, not clear) the bit between the white lines, and maybe a cars width beyond (or the bit the cheats use as their line).

anyway, it's F1 we're talking about, & if it was as bad as you say then perhaps the problem should have been noticed up by one of the course inspections or the CCTV.

[Tal Aras]

Originally Posted by alimcb

There has to be an automatic penalty for using run-off and the best penalty is forcing the drivers to go over a strip of grass or astroturf - something that's guaranteed to slow them down and give them a bit of fear of damaging the car. Even just robbing them of a few tenths of a second is enough to make it not worth running wide. Although, honestly speaking, I'd rather see gravel.

As has been said on other threads, that's fine for cars but bikes use the circuits as well. Anything on the edge of the circuit has to be able to allow a bike some space to get it wrong, as the riders don't have a nice metal/carbon fibre box around them.

If the cars are going four wheels off, the next Post Chief should be able to see it and report it in to race control.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Stack

So you would leave a piece of jagged metal just of the track? I think not! The "track" in my opinion stretches all the way to the tyre wall/armco/wall and should be kept in "prestine condition" not only for F1 but all meetings right down to the humble clubbie.

The "little pools of water" were considerably more than that and should have been swept BEFORE the session started.

I have very little involvement in motorsport other than as a keenly interested spectator, however I can still have an opinion so I will state it anyway.

The track i.e. between the *outside* edges of the white lines should be kept clean and clear so that it has a consistent and safe racing surface. Everything outside the white lines is there to minimise the risk to a driver and the risk presented by the errant car to Marshals and spectators, it is not the function of anything outside those lines to allow the driver to continue at racing speed, or indeed at all and the level of attention paid to it should reflect that, so I'd tend to agree that no one had any responsibility to sweep the water off the kerbs, although as you rightly say a chunk of metal would be a different story as it could turn an off into something much more serious than not finishing the session or race.

In any event an intelligent driver should have known it might be wet there and driven accordingly.

perhaps if it had been a bike event I the same argument could be used to suggest the water should have been removed because the effect of a puddle on a bike going at racing speed is very different.

[Steven Humphrey]

Sorry but if there's small pools of water anywhere on a track, or even just off it, after rain then tough-that's the challenge of a wet track! Large pools of standing water are a different story, you don't want cars aqua-planing.

[Stack]

A major part of a marshals duty is to keep the circuit safe to race on;. This includes not only the track surface but anything beyond this including kerbs, run offs, gravel traps, armco and tyre walls. OK the drivers are supposed to keep to the track but anything after that should be made safe to minimize any incident that may happen. In the Spanish case both incidents were made worse by the water between the curbing not being cleared

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Stack

A major part of a marshals duty is to keep the circuit safe to race on;. This includes not only the track surface but anything beyond this including kerbs, run offs, gravel traps, armco and tyre walls.

But surely that's the job of the circuit staff? I've got no issues with smoothing out gravel traps after someone's been in, sweeping gravel/dirt off the track or shifting tyre barriers back after an impact etc but there's only so much we can do.

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Stack

A major part of a marshals duty is to keep the circuit safe to race on;.

Agreed - my approach is that on the green stuff, anything that looks mechanical (bolts, screws, buts etc) get picked up - because they can urt the rest of my team if a car flicks them up. Large bits of bodywork/fibreglass (larger than A5'ish) get the same treatment. Anything else is left as is. As others have (sort of) said - Black is for racing, Green is for Recovery and if they are there, then they have made a mistake

On the black stuff, then everything gets cleared.

[Simon Morris]

Don't often comment in here, and have not yet seen the coverage of todays qualifying. However it is my strong opinion that as a marshal we should keep the race track clear of debris, oil, gravel etc in between sessions. We would also clear any debris from run off areas as this could cause harm. I do not consider part of my duty to clear the track of water at all. Water is part of the environment, and drivers especially over paid primal donors should be able to control the car in the conditions. If the weather is bad enough then the race directors will suspend. If they want water clearing from the circuit or run off area's once the rain has stopped then circuit staff should do this with pumps etc. Marshals are not provided any equipment for effectively moving water (a sweeping brush is near useless). I have witness at a number of uk circuits when circuit staff have brought out pumps.

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

On the black stuff, then everything gets cleared.

Totally agree with you on that, it's all the off track bits I would leave to circuit staff. Yes, I'd point them out & let the PC/IO/RC know and help where I could but it's not high on my list of priorities.

[Richy_Rich]

Perhaps you could get down on your hands and knees with a dustbuster as well, then after the CoC could come round with white gloves and inspect for dust on the kerbing

Does seem odd that the tolerance for running over white lines/kerbing seems to differ from series to series though, you see it a lot but we always used to get pulled up on it in our races..

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

Watching the Spanish GP saturday morning session now.

Just tuned in after the red came out for the Sauber in the wall and the Renault that did the same a few seconds later.
Marshals were out brushing out the little puddles of water from betweeen the ripple strips that probably caused the loss of control. OK good remedial work, but then commentator was going on about how the marshals should maybe have spotted this before the session started and cleaned it up then. (possibly he just said this because it's primarily radio commentry and he has to keep talking about ..something.)

Excuse me..I know the track has to be pristine to the molecular level for F1, but little pools of water in the gaps between the shiny ripple strips that are outside the white lines.
Oh me oh my..
one has to ask, how much outside of the white lines should be "cleaned"?

PS for our older contributors/readers..looks like all the marshals are in orange long sleeved overalls and are wearing helmets
never mind banning scanners just think of the outrage if we all have to wear helmets at the GP

Don't worry,
when JP realises how long you spend at the beach, he'll be getting you to paint the gravel a nice tan colour, so it looks good for the TV, LOL.
Maybe you should invite a certain person on this thread to work with you on the beach, so he can clean the track/run off strip of every piece of gravel after every race, to make sure no drivers slip on it!

[White flag man]

On the subject of FWO, there is now a painted (not raised) curb (?) on the outside of Sear, At Snetterton. it was funny how many driver were, yesterday, desperately trying to slow down into the corner, instead of just running wide like they used to.

[Hepatic]

good thinking for a tricky problem. should work well until the drivers realise...

[Woolley]

So, neatly joining together two threads, any rubbish on the track now only needs to be swept as far as the outside edge of the kerbing thus imposing a natural penalty on those running wide!

To go back to the original discussion, my view is that the circuit should be cleared of whatever can be shifted (tyre marbles can be a problem) plus anything that could impose a danger, either by causing damage to a car or tyres or by being redistributed into marshals' or spectator areas by a race car should be removed from wherever it is. In my case, I'll remove large bricks from gravel traps where they've appeared at the surface in case an errant vehicle throws it at me.

Water is a natural hazard. Excessive pools should be dealt with where necessary and would be picked up on the circuit inspection. Water off track I'm not interested in. Similarly when there has been oil cleared off the circuit you may show a Y/R flag on the formation lap, but only in rare circumstances would I show it for oil off-track. In fact, I'd be in favour of lightly greasing the first 6 feet of any tarmac run-off beyond the kerbs on a random basis!

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Stack

A major part of a marshals duty is to keep the circuit safe to race on;. This includes not only the track surface but anything beyond this including kerbs, run offs, gravel traps, armco and tyre walls. OK the drivers are supposed to keep to the track but anything after that should be made safe to minimize any incident that may happen. In the Spanish case both incidents were made worse by the water between the curbing not being cleared

I haven't seen the 'Spanish incident' so can't/won't comment on it here.

I am strangely in general agreement with Dave here, but I think the English language has provoked an argument.

Wherever I'm marshalling, I mostly get to post early, dump my stuff and then go for a wander of what I consider my estate for the weekend. As well as walking the track itself, I'll walk the kerbs, looking for loose/broken edges (Oulton seems worst for this) and anything bigger than gravel lurking in the divut behind the kerb and in the run-wide area.
I'll walk the track edges, looking for similar items within a foot of the edge of the track. I'll have a look at the armco gaps and running areas behind the armco for trip hazards etc.
If the kerbs are covered in gravel, have buildup of mud in the edges etc, I might have a go at a sweep.
If I'm really keen, I might even litter pick a little.

These aren't checks I'll do after every session, just something done on arrival. It gets my eye in for spotting debris, gives me a good picture of the layout of the sector and some confidence that I'm (as Woolley says) going to get showered in rocks/large crud when cars run wide.

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Woolley

In fact, I'd be in favour of lightly greasing the first 6 feet of any tarmac run-off beyond the kerbs on a random basis!

Spoken like a true Scalextric fan - I can remember setting up my track with a small can of 3-in-1 for the chicanes and cross-overs. Always more fun when you didnt tell you opponent what you had done.

[Sticker Rub]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

Spoken like a true Scalextric fan - I can remember setting up my track with a small can of 3-in-1 for the chicanes and cross-overs. Always more fun when you didnt tell you opponent what you had done.

I thought that was just me...