CTCRC Pre-93s gain Championship satus

Al Weyman · 14 Nov 2007, 08:28 (Ref:2067116)

Well it seems like a lot of you guys enjoyed the racing and with the CTRCC Pre-93's (the regs of which this was run to) now having full championship status for 2008 maybe we can see some of you coming out with us especially you Jag boys as we need more heavy metal and don't worry about the making 5000 a year thing as I understand the XJS's are an exception as we have that model out already. I hope to wheel the IROC Camaro out so should be fun, come and join in for 2008!

Stacy · 14 Nov 2007, 09:18 (Ref:2067138)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well it seems like a lot of you guys enjoyed the racing and with the CTRCC Pre-93's (the regs of which this was run to) now having full championship status for 2008 maybe we can see some of you coming out with us especially you Jag boys as we need more heavy metal and don't worry about the making 5000 a year thing as I understand the XJS's are an exception as we have that model out already. I hope to wheel the IROC Camaro out so should be fun, come and join in for 2008!

Hi Al,

Yes, positive news that the Pre-93 has achieved championship status, but interesting that it was rejected by BARC for the second time only a few short weeks ago.

Since the rejection of course the Production BMW's have decided to leave the CTCRC to plough their own furrow, so to speak, and as they formed a large part of the 93 grids (both in cars and extended social circles) I wonder if P93 will run stand alone without them realistically.

So I can understand the renewed vigour from the CTCRC & BARC with the re-application as sensible protection, but I guess the remaining cars will actually end up as part of the CMS/Classic Thunder races, which is a real shame for 93's, but a much needed boost for CMS.

We're just waiting for all the players in this space (BMW's, CSCC & CTCRC) to get their 2008 news out to make up our own race calendar and regs before we work out the racing we're doing next year.

S.

Al Weyman · 14 Nov 2007, 11:13 (Ref:2067192)

Quote:

So I can understand the renewed vigour from the CTCRC & BARC with the re-application as sensible protection, but I guess the remaining cars will actually end up as part of the CMS/Classic Thunder races, which is a real shame for 93's, but a much needed boost for CMS.

Whats CMS got to do with this, thats a new one on me. If the BMW's are leaving well good luck to them I never liked one make racing anyhow (why are they never that even I wonder, always someone comes to the fore) anyhow with the confirmed £100 2nd race charge I would imagine drivers would enter pre-93's from PHTC's and Group 1.

Quote:

We're just waiting for all the players in this space (BMW's, CSCC & CTCRC) to get their 2008 news out to make up our own race calendar and regs before we work out the racing we're doing next year

Who is 'we'? Surely you are not planning yet another rival series in this already overcrowded saloon racing arena, thats daft.

Stacy · 14 Nov 2007, 12:21 (Ref:2067241)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Whats CMS got to do with this, thats a new one on me. If the BMW's are leaving well good luck to them I never liked one make racing anyhow (why are they never that even I wonder, always someone comes to the fore) anyhow with the confirmed £100 2nd race charge I would imagine drivers would enter pre-93's from PHTC's and Group 1.

Who is 'we'? Surely you are not planning yet another rival series in this already overcrowded saloon racing arena, thats daft.

I think the point is that the numbers for a stand alone CTCRC 93, with the cars that are left post breakaway, are sadly unlikely to be great enough to hit a reliable break even point commercially. Something that was accepted by the club, albeit sadly, when the BM's first broke away. Especially disappointing to me as I'd committed to a CTCRC Pre-93 series to chase the level of competition inherent within it.

So since CMS was also a lowish grid (for some reason 10 Classic Thunder cars, plus 10 Mod Saloon cars = 13 - for reasons which I never understood) there is a solid opportunity to put the two together and have one decent CTCRC CMS/93 grid with what's left. I don't see that as a problem for the club but a healthy opportunity, it's just not something that appeals to me as I don't want to cut the car about to make the mods necessary. For clarity I was planning on making a couple of CMS events depending on calendar - and am a paid up racing member of BARC until very late next year..

With regard to one-make - certainly some cars are more equal than others, but imho cream will always rise. Are you the one who always says "I never liked her anyway" when I've been dumped by a girlfriend..?

Er, "We", is my team (Mr & Mrs Warner, Brian, Richard, Mrs V & I). We have a car, an orange one you may have seen around, which has had it's plans for next year substantially affected by events..

The BMW's have always maintained they will run a second "promotion" series - probably the wrong word there but there you go. This gives them scope to grow into more modified cars, and of course do a second race. Previously this series was Pre-93, but that's no longer possible due to the split. I don't believe this has been held under a bushel, so it's arguable who is trying to run a 'rival series'..

That's what "we" are waiting for - where are the people we want to race against going to go.. Currently there seems to be a substantial centre of gravity towards the BMW contingent, and more of the crushingly good value VM type jollies - hence our presence on Saturday.

S.

Al Weyman · 14 Nov 2007, 13:58 (Ref:2067322)

Why would they amalagamate Pre-93 with CMS thats the bit I dont get, why would they need to? The BMW's may go and good luck to them whatever they do I still found them boring though.

Why also when the CTRCC have several other championships to draw drivers from and with the new for 2008 £100 2nd race entry fee should they not be able to make up any short fall of entries? They had full grids and reserves at many rounds so even take out 10 BMW's you would still have a healthy grid especially if bolstered by guys who got the hump last season when BARC put the 2nd race fee up to £120 as I know many abstained from entry as a protest.

Quote:

We're just waiting for all the players in this space (BMW's, CSCC & CTCRC) to get their 2008 news out to make up our own race calendar and regs

I just got the impression when you stated 'to make up our own race calendar and regs' from your previous post that you were prehaps planning to set up a rival series if I have got that wrong then I apologise but thats the way it read to me.

Stacy · 14 Nov 2007, 14:52 (Ref:2067350)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Why also when the CTRCC have several other championships to draw drivers from and with the new for 2008 £100 2nd race entry fee should they not be able to make up any short fall of entries? They had full grids and reserves at many rounds so even take out 10 BMW's you would still have a healthy grid especially if bolstered by guys who got the hump last season when BARC put the 2nd race fee up to £120 as I know many abstained from entry as a protest.

I just got the impression when you stated 'to make up our own race calendar and regs' from your previous post that you were prehaps planning to set up a rival series if I have got that wrong then I apologise but thats the way it read to me.

I just do the maths differently.. You have the BMW's, but also the cars connected with them. A brief look at the entries this year show that as you know Pre-74 survival has to be the most important thing facing the club next year, and I hope it gets the attention it deserves - because history has shown us there is only so much effort to go round once the annual surge of enthusiasm has died. I believe it averaged under the MSA requirement this year which can't be allowed to happen again.

A brief look at the entries for Pre-93 is what I'm basing my sums on. I may be wrong, but for each round here are the stats of BMW's (and related cars) making up the grid. The number in brackets is the grid potentially left for the CTCRC. As I speed read there might be the odd mistake, but the principle remains:

Brands 14 from 23 (9)
Mallory 16 from 24 (8)
Combe 22 from 33 (11)
Silverstone 16 from 26 (10)
Croft 8 from 14 (6)
Pembrey 9 from 18 (9)
Snetterton 20 from 30 (10)
Donington 24 from 38 (14)
Oulton 18 from 30 (12)

Assuming you get a 10% uplift on the £20 reduction in second entry fees they still do not a full grid make.. Consequently my apparently unpopular, but I'd maintain correct, view that it would be better to wind these into CMS which produces 7-17 cars thus producing a decent grid between them and working on core product which is 66 & 74's.. Group 1 is the only series punching it's numbers regularly.

I hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like a fight I'd be choosing to take on, whatever the motives, when you consider what else has to be addressed - but it is no longer down to me, perhaps braver souls have picked up the cudgels and good luck to them. I would have played a longer game.

Ah I see. Yes, see your point. Re-reading this it should have read: "waiting to get their 2008 news and regs out to make up our own race calendar and work out the racing we're doing next year. I want close competitive racing with a decent grid - and will have to take a view on where I'm likely to get that pretty soon. That will be my core racing, and I'll supplement with the remainder.

S.

craig j · 14 Nov 2007, 19:26 (Ref:2067530)

[QUOTE=The BMW's may go and good luck to them whatever they do I still found them boring though. [/QUOTE]

Top job Victor Weyman!
I guess driving the Exxon Valdez must be much more exciting than watching it

.

Al Weyman · 14 Nov 2007, 20:56 (Ref:2067577)

It was simply a rocker gasket that would not seal because of an overhanging inlet manifold which sadly I overlooked when I changed the covers for some nice blingy ones and looked way worse than it was and yes believe me driving my Chevies would be way more exciting than a near bog standard BMW Taxi. :-)

David J Howard · 14 Nov 2007, 23:05 (Ref:2067643)

Figures are marvellous things are they not ! ...As a complete flip of a coin I analysed your Oulton Figures ...If ..as you say there are 12 Group Ones out of 30... Well I can only see 11 PBMW's So surely the Minimum Potential CTCRC Grid is 19 as compared to the other grid of 18 . We can both lay claim to the middle ground.... You say you are undecided ... well why not support the CTCRC ...

. David.

David J Howard · 15 Nov 2007, 09:40 (Ref:2067853)

.

I just got the impression when you stated 'to make up our own race calendar and regs' from your previous post that you were prehaps planning to set up a rival series if I have got that wrong then I apologise but thats the way it read to me.[/QUOTE]

Hi Al

Certainly sounded like that to me Al ...I think it's called a "freudian slip" .
.
Time to leave the closet perhaps Stacy ?

I made a Freudian Slip the other day ... I was having lunch with my ex-wife discussing her maintenance payments ..

What I meant to say was "Please could you pass the Butter?" ...but what inexplicably slipped out was .."F&&k Off you grasping Bi%%h ...I can't stand your guts !

Hey Ho ...Cheers David.

Stacy · 15 Nov 2007, 11:10 (Ref:2067913)

Bit early for the Rioja David, we used to get these at 2am not 11am.

I must be getting a bit slow in my old age, there was me thinking we fought very hard to retain the BMW's largely because we knew that 93 realistically depended on them in the short term. In fact you even seconded me back onto committee to try and build some very burnt bridges internally, and to try and organize an agreeable deal..

It proved to be too little too late of course, but now it's happened, and the BMW's will undoubtedly be running their own similar series (as we knew would be the case all year if they left the club) I just don't see the reason for the anxiety.

Good old fashioned scapegoating might be therapeutic, but it's neither accurate nor long term beneficial.

As you know, I've been very public about my intentions for sprint racing next year - I want the grids and the competition with my peers. For clarity that means the likes of Ken L, John W, Craig et al. I understand they are unsurprisingly currently headed for the BMW's. As a member of the CTCRC since 98, committee member since 00, and Comp Sec for 3yrs, that's a shame. I'll also be entering CMS/93 rounds if the calendar/grid is right, and indeed some CSCC events.

Stacy

Eric Falce · 15 Nov 2007, 13:44 (Ref:2068039)

Just want to add my halfpennyworth,if the racing is as much fun as last weekend,the entry fee's are moderate,the regs mean as long as you keep within the spirit you will race,you have a succesfull series.Pity the Beamers are not there next year,maybe they will change there mind if they dont get the full grids.I had better keep out of this anyway as I am not sure what I am commenting on or talking about,which isn't new.

COLIN STUBBS · 15 Nov 2007, 14:46 (Ref:2068096)

David keep off the subject of em miisses that antagonises me more than "saloon formula libre" to quote Scrivvy.
My uneducated and totally unbiased opinion is that if the two series are amalgamated they will both fail owing to the vastly different types of cars out there. I can peddle the little Rover at a respectable speed round Cadwell but I sure wouldnt wanna get in this [CMS]guys way...............................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xEryV8N-q4

Al Weyman · 16 Nov 2007, 08:06 (Ref:2068619)

Dont worry the rust bug will have got it first Colin. Its not Joss you have to worry about he is a class act, its a certain Galic white Camaro which dont take no prisoners as I have found out to my cost! I cant see this happening because it will mean short races for most of the field as the top CMS cars would be lapping everyone else and thats not on, I am sure however certain people would like to see it happen so they can pick up the pieces which is another reason why its not gonna happen (IMHO). This championship can stand on its own feet with or without boring old near standard BMW's I am sure of that.

juliann · 16 Nov 2007, 09:13 (Ref:2068679)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

with or without boring old near standard BMW's I am sure of that.

There really isn't any need to slag us off. It doesn't really help gather potential entrants to CTCRC or Pre'93 if new guys feel they may be subject to this kind of alienation if you choose that you don't like their particular car

Stacy · 16 Nov 2007, 11:52 (Ref:2068787)

Slagging only occurs when you leave Julian..

I wish this had come out before the Victor Meldrew handicap was worked out, as I'm suitably bewildered it has to be said.. There seems to be a fundamental dislike of lying in ones own prepared bed, drizzled with some history reinvention and a dusting of old fashioned demonising for good measure.

Like all divorces I'm sure things will calm down in time. Can't wait till one of them picks up a new girlfriend.

Through it all one hopes we'll have a good year racing round a track next year! Lets not forget that's what we're here for..

S.

Al Weyman · 16 Nov 2007, 12:53 (Ref:2068818)

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliann

There really isn't any need to slag us off. It doesn't really help gather potential entrants to CTCRC or Pre'93 if new guys feel they may be subject to this kind of alienation if you choose that you don't like their particular car

Correct IF I don't like it thats fair enough its my opinion, to be honest what I really dont like is the way this has been done if you want the truth of the matter.

Quote:

Through it all one hopes we'll have a good year racing round a track next year! Lets not forget that's what we're here for..

S.

Ready to come clean on what you are all there for yet then Stacy?

Stacy · 16 Nov 2007, 14:09 (Ref:2068889)

Al,

Your bizarre and unhelpful assumption (evidently based on less than half a story) has been responded to in the CTCRC forum.

S.

**Tim Falce** · 16 Nov 2007, 14:20 (Ref:2068892)

All I can say is that this thread is not a good advert for the CTCRC. Eric and I were thinking of joining next year with his current car and maybe another one which he has in mind, so that could be 2 potential new members.

I for one would not want to get involved with a series that IMHO seems to have a fair bit of infighting within it. I know there are internal politics with most race series but why not keep your complaints to committee meetings, phone calls or private messages and not shout out on what could potentially be an excellent shop window for your series.

Eric Falce · 16 Nov 2007, 14:27 (Ref:2068896)

But Tim,if you join in the pre 93 series you get yor very own handbag.

Al Weyman · 16 Nov 2007, 14:42 (Ref:2068908)

Hang on Tim this is not infighting at all I take great exception to that suggestion, this has come about because a rival series has been set up (I suspected this but has now been confirmed by Stacy on the club site) with virtually identical rules to ours, the fighting as you call it is not 'in' at all its against those who have seen fit to be part of something at a high level then set up something virtually identical to rival it, trust me there is no 'in' fighting from me maybe a bit of sparring against some rebel elements but definitely no in fighting, as I am 100% supportive of the CTRCC who have always been OK to me.

Stacy · 16 Nov 2007, 14:58 (Ref:2068919)

In true Victor Meldrew tradition "I don't believe it".

As you know Al the BMW's effectively created 93 for the club and will be running their own version now they are leaving. This has been known for years. The reasons for their leaving are best left out of here. We know they are closer to home than may be comfortable, and I for one did my best to rectify it when asked. The club had originally taken the stance that they would concentrate on their other series, but have now it seems changed their mind and taken steps in that direction.

As I said to you on the CTCRC forum:

"Further, the breakup was not necessarily a permanent position, and I firmly believe that using words like "rival series", general abuse of them now they are gone, and demonising individuals who were just as much along for the ride as you, is not only extremely bad form but ultimately reflects badly on the club. It also of course ensures what could have been a temporary break becomes a permanent one."

Please take heed to Mr Falce. There is no need for such public emotive discussion.

S.

David J Howard · 16 Nov 2007, 16:14 (Ref:2068971)

Hi Julian... Don't get upset by Al... He is his own man and says it how he sees it. Sometimes I love him and sometimes I want to strangle him ..He is an honest man ...however his opinions are not always that of the management !!!

Fair Comment I hope Al ?

Regards... David Howard

Tim Wilkinson · 16 Nov 2007, 16:56 (Ref:2069001)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Hang on Tim this is not infighting at all I take great exception to that suggestion, this has come about because a rival series has been set up (I suspected this but has now been confirmed by Stacy on the club site) with virtually identical rules to ours, the fighting as you call it is not 'in' at all its against those who have seen fit to be part of something at a high level then set up something virtually identical to rival it, trust me there is no 'in' fighting from me maybe a bit of sparring against some rebel elements but definitely no in fighting, as I am 100% supportive of the CTRCC who have always been OK to me.

How did Mod-Prods start, again?

Pre-90 classes with very similar regs to Pre-93 ran along with Classic Thunder up to a couple of years ago. Entries for those classes weren't too high then, iirc. As seems to have been shown by the CT / Toyos merger, people would rather put their cars away than spend a lot of money to run way down the grid, even if they are winning in class.

COLIN STUBBS · 16 Nov 2007, 16:59 (Ref:2069004)

Id totally agree with David and apart from one break for 2 years been with the CTCRC since 1985.Its without a doubt the friendliest and enthusiastically run club about that tries to give good saloon car racing for us members.But you cant please everone all the time and its an awful shame that all this craps flying about,in a public forum.One or two of us (me included) sometimes get a bit hot headed and say the wrong things and as in this instance its often down to not really knowing the full story,and being biased towards one type of car...
As for the pBMWs Iv just had a season racing in the same class (wth my 216gti)and had an excellent years sport,and am sorry to see them go.
Pre93 should be able to succeed on its own.Theres plenty of cars out there which are eligable and getting a bit long in the tooth for stock hatch,LMA,etc,and people who dont want to throw silly money at it.
IMHO mixing pre93 and a highly modified class would put people off from both series,lets hope common sense prevails and pre93 gets some support.
And stop this *****ing!!!!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Pre 93 Touring Car Series given Championship Status for 2008	David J Howard	Historic Racing Today	57	27 Nov 2007 17:05
CTCRC Pre-93 regs subset	johnw	Racers Forum	112	23 Dec 2006 18:38
BARC CTCRC Toyo modified production classic thunder saloon car championship	big andy	National & Club Racing	57	29 Sep 2006 13:54
handling gain	lotus	Racing Technology	29	15 Feb 2005 04:42
GAIN Popups...	ASCII Man	Announcements and Feedback	4	28 Jul 2004 12:51