Club F3 What’s involved are you interested ?

[Jon Gray]

Having read various threads regarding Club F3 I thought I would start my own for a straight and I hope honest interpretation of the championship so please feel free to ask any question and I will try and give you a honest answer.

My background is that I race in the championship and have done for over ten years be it Club F3 or as it was ARP F3, one thing I would say is it is hard to compare different championships as they all have good and bad points but at the end of the day it is up to the individual as to what they want to race in.

Grays Motorsport competes in Club F3 because we believe it offers the opportunity to drive and engineer a high specification single seater that is both safe, competitive and affordable for a club level series.

[Bob Pearson]

Jon,
We thought seriosly about joining in for this year, but eventually decided to stay put with BARC Renault. Two questions always remained in our minds not fully answered, they are as follows:
Must the expensive high octane fuel be used or is it possible to remap the electronics to use auper unleaded without a performance drop. If the remap option is possible with only a tiny power drop, why not change the regs to keep costs down and so make it a bit more attractive to possible future competitors?
Tyres, I understand you use a different tyre to the National F3, why not use the same so making it easier for competitors on a marginal budget to obtain S/H tyres from what must be a sizeable mountain with national teams.

[Jon Gray]

Hi bob

Fuel

Yes a lot of people ask why we don’t run on super unleaded or other pumped fuel. The main reason for this is we try to keep the cars as similar to British F3 as possible and although it would be cheaper for pumped fuel a lot of the ECU’s in the series are older Magneti Marelli, Bosch, Mugen etc. these are more or less impossible to reprogram.

Another issue with pumped fuel for some competitors is they have there engines rebuilt by the likes of Neil Brown, Sudemo, Spice they are only interested in building F3 engines and I don’t think they would be interested in hybrid engines.

My car originally had a Bosch 3.1 system the cost of the software alone was astronomical as it is still used by current F3 so we converted it to Motec this enables Xtec (engine builder) full control of the engine programming. So we could run on pumped fuel but there are only three cars like this in the series.

Club F3 is not the only series to run on this type of fuel (see below)

Great&British (full weekend support): Radicals, Mini Challenge, and Dunlop SportMax - Sunoco RMR = 25 ltr. @ £76.38

Club F3 (drummed service): Club F3 is the F3 Championship for 5 year and older F3 cars - Sunoco FR = 25 ltr. @ £76.38

MSA Gravel Championship (pump service): ANCRO Championship throughout UK - Sunoco RMR = 25 ltr. @ £76.38 and RSUR 25 ltr. @ £61.10

MSA Tarmac Championship (pump and drum service): Legend Fires Championship throughout UK - Sunoco RMR = 25 ltr. @ £76.38 and RSUR 25 ltr. @ £61.10

Historic Championships (pump service): Masters, Top Hat, Motor Racing Legends, U2TC and HSCC - R 6SR = 25ltr £69.33 and R 5SR = 25ltr @ £66.98

Group C - GTP Racing: Supply of race fuel to each round of the series throughout Europe = 25ltr @ £90.48

Sunoco deliver the fuel to the circuit for us and provide a great service.

Some competitors use Avgas and super unleaded for testing as a way of reducing costs but the performance is not the same.

[Jon Gray]

Tyres

This year we have switched over to Radial tyres and I was one of the first to request the same specification as British F3 for the obvious cost savings.

This year Avon changed the compound for the National Series as they are increasing in speed they felt the need for a harder compound it was decided by Avon that this tyre would not be 100% suitable for Club F3. I am still not convinced this is correct but you have to go with the regulations this could change in the future.

Another consideration is our championship has tyre support at each meeting by BMTR so there has to be a commercial interest for them. In any series there will always be competitors that will spend money on new tyres believing that they will give them the advantage.

A new set of slicks cost £650.00 and they are fantastic compared to last years tyre in fact the difference is day and night. We normally run new tyres for each meeting but our regulations only allow one set per meeting so the maximum sets I would run this year is seven but to date both Pembrey and Rockingham was wet so five is more realistic. (5 x £650 = £3250)

Chris Willie that races with us is using National F3 tyres for testing and my tyres from the previous meeting for the racing this reduces the cost considerably and he finds the performance difference marginal.

[FFmygale]

It certainly sounds like the reason for not using National series spec. tyres is commercial rather than technical. However your example of the driver that uses second hand national spec tyres to test on and your second had tyres to race on shows that in reality the commercial impact of Club F£ using National spec. tyres would be negligible. I expect that you and a few others would still buy 1 new set for each race meeting (I certainly would). Surely this is a point that should be pushed for the series for next season?

With regard to fuel - if using super unleaded gives a performance disadvantage then would it not be possible to have this as an option available for those drivers who would rather (and could due to their engine mapping) use this?

Finally do you knows plans for the structure of the championship for next year? Is it going to be similar to this in terms of number of meetings etc etc.?

[Jon Gray]

Hi FFmygale

Like most series you will always have competitors that will use new tyres and we are no different another fact is when you look at National F3 they are sponsored by Avon. So it is understandable that due to the amount of tyres they use per team they get a discount. Our tyres are supplied by Avon through BMTR and we get a great service at the circuit. Of course we would like them to be cheaper and after speaking with British F3 mangers so would they.

The first time I tested this year at Oulton Park on Radials I was lucky as the Avon staff were there setting up for the British F3 meeting that week end. One of Avon’s tyre technicians spent most of the day with me checking my tyres and giving me useful advice that’s what I call service.

Regarding fuel we have no intentions of running on any other form of fuel, simply because our series is for Formula 3 cars and that’s what they run on. If everyone is running on the same fuel it is fair ok it might cost more but that is one of the considerations you have to make about racing F3 cars.

[JohnMiller]

FF Mygale

Within the 2007 regs there is provision for a new spec Honda engine. I believe this could run on either type of fuel and no decisions have been made.

It is interesting to note that of the pro level F3 championships in the world many now run to a spec-engine format, which can include 95/98RON fuel.

Britain - traditional engine spec.
Euroseries - traditional engine spec.
German - new, low cost spec engine for this year widely used
Spain - spec engine, pump fuel (biofuel in 2008)
SudAm - spec engine, pump fuel
Asian - spec engine
Japan - traditional
Australian - traditional
Italian - traditional
Finnish - traditional

I believe some of the latter smaller series currently running traditional are looking to change.

[Jon Gray]

Hi John any chance of you getting out in your car this year assuming you still have it or have you sold it to Daniel for spares ?

The Xtec new spec Honda engine can run on either type of fuel as it has a Motec ECU. I have discussed this with Xtec and I could have two maps for each type of fuel for my engine but although the fuel is cheaper there are two problems. One is power would be down by 15-20 BHP and the other which is more dangerous is the ignition would be a lot lower from 16 to 8 deg so risk of detonation is high.

As a series we are constantly looking at options so you can never rule out the possibility of running pumped fuel but at the moment it would not be beneficial.

[JohnMiller]

Jon

I'm not sure one car is enough spares for Daniel's luck...

I'm waiting some bits from Dallara - hope to do Silverstone on, but no promises.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Jon

I'm not sure one car is enough spares for Daniel's luck...

I'm waiting some bits from Dallara - hope to do Silverstone on, but no promises.

John,

How is Steve Patania getting on?

[FFmygale]

you might be able to tempt me to hire one of your cars soon john....am getting withdrawal symptoms!!

[JohnMiller]

Only got the F304 left for Club F3 - unless you fancy an F300 or an F306 in Spain of course?

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

John,

How is Steve Patania getting on?

Steve was unfortunate to suffer a shunt first time out and the car should be rebuilt soon.

[FFmygale]

Would the F300 not run in Club F3 then? or I guess it is more that the cars are physically in Spain?

[JohnMiller]

The cars are in the UK but we wouldn't run those in Club F3.

[driftwood]

Just found this thread
1 I see no disadvantage of running F3 on std pump fuel or the special cocktail that cost 3 times the price my opel was dyno tested running on 98 octane at same level as cocktail fuel

2 Tyres- IMHO avon or the arp people messed around with the X ply tyre that worked well and it went down hill from 2004/5- If it aint broke why fix it!

3 IMHO 25 min races too long & boring to watch.
When u get the DH events why cant we have 3x 12 mins plus 1 lap races this will encourage more racers to race- 2 or 3 shorter races per meeting makes more sense
Ive been talking with a french club F3 racer & they have 3 races per meeting
1 x 5 lap starts on c/ship positions next race is 1x 5 lapper reverse grid !!
final race which gives them the c/ship points is 8 lapper
The series has similar cars grids to Club F3 I mentioned we have august BHatch race and maybe they could come over they also have a race 1/2 sept at Crois ( near dieppe) maybe we go over?
they run on michelin & kumho tyres
I did give Mr B the contact link but he has sent me to Coventry

4 The Oz F3 have mumbled about having a spec F3 engine but i fear its hard to enforce a total engine change it costs more that running the current motors Its logical to say the next genration cars should run a spec engine and offer the option to other older models to change perhaps gain extra point for running spec motor?
The engine is 1 expense then u have to change the whole fitting kit per
race
The Brazilians all had mugens bar 3 cars ( on opels) so they used the shorter Ford alloy lump with a spacer onto the mugen kit so the swap over was cheap- engine runs FI system no restrictor 220 hp = $15k new engines!!

5 USA tried 1999/2000 F3 with a spec VW motor series failed after 18 months

6 I have car i will rent want 2 race deal or its not ££ viable to spend time changing car seat pedals etc

[ss_collins]

I think club F3 struggles as it is not sure what it is - a pro series with pro teams, tidy cars, presentation rules and people wanting to keep/get sponsors or a amatuer series for guys who just want to race good quick cars despite what they look like.

Also reading past threads on the series it has come across a little unfriendly and exclusive. I don't have the budget for Club F3 and if I did I'd be racing a LMP3 instead so you can disregard this as you please

[driftwood]

Club F3 is an amatuer series for older guys to race "modern" race car
The young spunkers can go and race in many other junior Formula to climb the career ladder
The previous "rulers" tried to make ARP F3 a ladder formula it just doesnt work we have had the odd young gun with small budget run as its a toss up between doing FFord on £20-30k or driving f3 car= no brainer
even if you never drove a race car again and you retire u can always say you raced in f3 as oppossed to FFord

[ss_collins]

So if I dug out a Ralt F399 but the nose cone was a bit mank after a couple of bumps and one sidepod was the wrong colour would I be welcome?

But driftwood I like the gist of what you are saying - I'm 25 but definatley a club racer - would I still be welcome?

[driftwood]

if u had wrong colour paint i can supply tank tape the same colour to make it look as 1 colour on the track
as for yr age turn the numbers around and put 52 on the commentators form!

[Jon Gray]

Hi driftwood

Tyres

It was logical for Club F3 to switch to Radial tyres your right the very old spec radials were ok but as the cars have moved on so have the tyres. Avon spent a lot of time trying different diameter and compound front crossply tyres but they just did not work.

Race Distance

I think 25 minutes is just right with a longer race distance it makes competitors more inclined to believe that it’s not won at the first corner. When I competed in formula fords which I enjoyed, one of the only things that put me of was the travelling I once went to Snetterton and our race was cut short to 5 laps it happened a couple of times and that put me off. The following year I went back to the champion of Oulton but then missed the challenge of the other circuits. The point is it’s up to the individual and what they want but compared to other series I think 25 min qual and race is good enough track time.

[driftwood]

If we turned the track time into 3 races better vallue for money ( just like karting)
rather do 3 races than 1 or 2 longer races
i can take the sports car to do enduros!

[JohnMiller]

Details, details.

I don't think talking about race distances will address the slim grids.

Clearly I'm a convert but I reckon my Club F3 motor to have total running costs of around £4/mile - assuming normal use and no blow ups etc.

Our Spanish F3 motors provide near identical performance and sound far better and cost around £0.70/mile to run. If they weren't rebuilt by the professional engine company, it would be closer to £0.50.

I think we should allow in engines from all the main European F3 series, thus including the German OPC motor too. This would save a lot of cost and make it much easier to run cars bought in another country.

Any disparities could be equalised by ballast - we have to remember it is club racing.

[Jon Gray]

Hi ss_collins

I would not say club f3 struggles it could do with more competitors actually racing but the same could be said for a lot of championships.

Club F3 is a series for club racers ok there are teams involved but the drivers are mainly club drivers like any series from time to time you get drivers trying to make career in Motorsport but I think that’s healthy.

Regarding age it really doesn’t matter ok there are quite a few older drivers in the championship but they are still very competitive I guess you could call them experienced.

Past threads coming across a little unfriendly and exclusive? I would like to think that everything I have posted on this site regarding club F3 is positive yes there was a bit of animosity in ARP F3 but again there was the same sort of stuff going on when I raced formula fords. The truth of the matter is that this site does not represent all of club f3 if you ever want to chat about the championship and what’s involved then please contact me. I can assure you it’s friendly and defiantly not exclusive.

Car Presentation is very important and you normally find in any series a well presented car often means it’s looked after and that means safe which can’t be a bad thing.

[Jon Gray]

driftwood that’s exactly it it’s not karting, if you had three 10 min races how could the BRSCC support this just getting the cars to the grid would be hard enough you would loose so much track time with getting the race started green flag laps and count down etc. and that’s not just club f3 cars it goes for any formula.


John we might look into engines I would be interested in any information you have about cost’s spec etc.