The P Word... even VESA is saying it now....

[spectator22]

According to latest eNews Holden is formally looking for a 'Parity' adjustment. Here we go again! The old 'trigger' system has been quietly dropped in favour of the V8 Board triggering a review (????) Holden says that results this year (Race Wins 14 to 6, round wins 7 to 1) mean that Ford has an aero advantage. Ford Racing boss says Holden aren't doing a good enough job. Of the two, I tend to agree with Ford.

[davester]

I would have thought Ford's 6 round victories vs Holden's 3 round victories (including AGP) points to ascendency not dominence.

Currently we see:
Holden lead the Driver's championship.
Holden have 6 teams in the Top 10 in the teams standings.
PMM competitive, and BJR competitive relative to 2007.
Holden wins most recent round.

If HRT and HSV had left their operations in-tact rather than destabilise their own 2007 Championship winning team with significant restructuring, their 2008 results may have been better...we will never know.

Does Ford need to pay the price for WP/Holden messing with "Team HSV" which took two consecutive Driver Championships in 2006 and 2007 ?

Holden brought the #1 to HRT, they didn't earn it, and now they want VESA to bring them the 2008 trophy.

Maybe Holden also cannot accept that Skaife appears to be a shadow of his former self (with all due respect to his superb history). Take a reality pill and acknowledge that HRT and HSV are basically one driver teams.

[J-C]

Would seem to me as someone following the series over in the UK that the only reason there is a parity "issue" is because Holden have pretty much put all their eggs in the Walkinshaw basket and then focused entirely on one team (HRT) which has virtually been a 1-car team this year. If Tander has a bad round, there are only 2 or 3 other Holdens that have a remote chance of winning, whereas Ford has greater strength in depth with FPR, 888, DJR and SBR all winners this year.

And I don't recall there being a parity discussion when Holden won all bar 3 races at this stage last year...and the cars haven't changed since then!

[fomoco]

So holden leads Championship, Holden is the teams points,

Where is the problem?

Oh it is the TWP/HRT/HSV Championship Series that must be suffering.

I thought they were talking about the V8Supercars.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by J-C

And I don't recall there being a parity discussion when Holden won all bar 3 races at this stage last year...and the cars haven't changed since then!

Do a search, you'll find plenty of threads dated a year ago discussing this topic.


Spectator22 mentions from the article that 'Holden aren't doing a good enough job', well that could be said back in the AU falcon days, which took the Holdens backwards for 'parity'

[Muznik]

Originally Posted by fomoco

So holden leads Championship, Holden is the teams points,

Where is the problem?

Oh it is the TWP/HRT/HSV Championship Series that must be suffering.

I thought they were talking about the V8Supercars.

Yeah this Holden fan finds it hard to argue a case when Garth leads the championship.

[mountainstar]

Well Holden won the last two championships so under parity Ford should win the next two.

[bluesport]

Holden want the Ford teams destabilised before Bathurst IMO. They have played this game in years gone by.

[hgmonaro]

What I found interesting from the wording of the article (and I can't say I read it that closely), was that Holden can demonstrate their cars are slow at certain/selected rounds. Something like that. If that's the case, then it's not good enough, you can't pick and choose... this is not supposed to be statistics. The same arguement was used (number of race wins, poles, etc)back when this method was actually in use, eg. the AU's were not slow enough (they just kept crashing each other off the road) to trigger the formula at first (I think they eventually did).

As I posted in a recent thread, they should publish the results (assuming the old system was still in use, which we find out is not the case) then it would be black and white... adjust the performance of one of the cars or tell them to nick off (which seems to be the answer at the moment)

[Micklegend]

I think driver form and team stability is a guiding force here, as posted by others, the rationale is believable. Holdens support of young talent is being hampered by driver/team placement.

Analysing this further, consider the following:

FORD:

888 - 2 drivers held for their 3rd year now, engineering has remained similar with improvement gains through partnerships with other strong organisations (SBR)

FPR - 2 strong drivers, together for the 2nd year running, team has been developing and as seen in late 2007, results are following.

DJR - Driver talent stable, probably down on development/sponsor dollars to extract true results, but positive results mainly from car 18.

SBR - Change in drivers but encouraging results from car 9 with youth and enthusiasm, engineering partnerships paying off with car speed. Just need to avoid accidents!!!

PCR - Good combination of enthusiasm and engineering support on a small budget.

HOLDEN:

HRT: Musical chairs with team management/drivers - Car 1 the leading light with a determined driver, Car 2 has potential (trying too hard??).

HSV: Car 15 still has potential, but has lost his team mate who would have provided the competitive edge, current car 16 not in the same league. Less $$ from Holden - I rate this a similar situation to DJR with driver combo. Shot themselves in the foot moving the current champion.

GRM: Initiative to hold drivers with potential, flashes of brilliance but not enough support from the manufacturer IMO. Improving similar to FPR of a few years ago. Keep the same drivers and I expect 2010 to yield more top 10s.

BJR: Good idea in principal to get Walkinshaw gear, but is the ongoing support there. Driver combo not strong enough to push each other, I hate to say it but Cam may have passed his peak despite having some better results than when driving for others. A Jones will end up like S Johnson, good driver, just not good enough.

JDR: TK has been a great buy, pity there still needs to be some catch up in the performance area. Young Price needs a couple more years yet, perhaps a team change too could help get some different experience (Winterbottom from SBR to FPR as an example). The potential is there but not fully realised.

TASMAN: Basket case I'm afraid, if car 3 could stay away from trouble then perhaps better results will come.....Mr Murphy, retirement to the Porsche Paddock is beckoning....take Skaife with you.

RNR: Excellent potential.....driver needs to get into the current car 2 IMO. Similar to PCR in potential.

Thats my read of the situation......any further thoughts out there?

[Peter Ford]

I think holden want to have their cake and eat as well,but hey u cant win all the time,i think they are so used to winning that when they arent they are decide to have a shred some tears and hopefully someone will help them win again.Maybe Ford are doing a better than holden because their cars are better suited to the tracks this year and the holden models are not,next year the FG couls stuggle and find ourselves at this time of the championship where holden are now.

[Bimmerhead]

Just the fact that there have been no engineering changes to the Holden since it was winning at this time last year suggests that parity is not the problem. As others have mentioned, team instability could be a major factor - it tends to make you take your eye off the ball. Look at Mr Skaife - he really hasn't been the same driver since he became de-facto team owner and all the internal troubles festered to the surface.

[davester]

VESA could argue that parity would be restored by WP rewinding its business model back 12 months (ie: without BJR, GRM, TDR in the main game).

WP has gone from only servicing HRT/HSV in the main game, to servicing HRT/HSV/BJR/GRM/TDR in the space of 12 months. Maybe WP have got it just a little wrong, and are taking the whole "Holden ship" down with them?

The WP/Holden mistake was with messing with the 2006 and 2007 champion team. HSV should have been kept together, while HRT rebuilt into something better.
After all:
if you have a quick engine, you dont butcher it...you keep trying to build a better one, and when the better one comes along, it becomes the new benchmark until the old one is improved or a new one is developed. It's called leapfrog.

[Pro Racer]

simple solution get Skaife out of the drivers seat and into a managemnt roll, get Lee in Skaifes seat by offering GRM compo via some free engines, then offload Dumbrell and get Jason Richards into the #16 car now i know someof you are thinking WTF but Jason has made those Tasman hacks over the years go quick and most of his "off's" have been caused by over driving a dud car, put Jason in a car that was quick that he could just use his natural game he would be great. last but not least put the Kleenex away and work harder.

[billy bigtime]

Originally Posted by Pro Racer

simple solution get Skaife out of the drivers seat and into a managemnt roll, get Lee in Skaifes seat by offering GRM compo via some free engines, then offload Dumbrell and get Jason Richards into the #16 car now i know someof you are thinking WTF but Jason has made those Tasman hacks over the years go quick and most of his "off's" have been caused by over driving a dud car, put Jason in a car that was quick that he could just use his natural game he would be great. last but not least put the Kleenex away and work harder.

Skaife in a management role
The Holden boys just need to work harder. The new TWPG cars seem to have taken a step back IMO. To much on their plate(or rigg) maybe.

[FalconEL]

Where is deeks6 when you need him?

I can hear him firing up the keyboard already

[bluesport]

I think Pro hit the nail on the head, it's the drivers. HRT/HSV have 2 1/2 dud drivers. Tander shows the way and he is playing a lone hand. If Tander can make the cars go that quick, then so can others......that have the ability that is.

[Venom XR]

I thought you head the nail on the head bluesport - shonky pre-Bathurst tactics.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by FalconEL

Where is deeks6 when you need him?

I can hear him firing up the keyboard already

Now, I think there needs to be a parity adjustment too ... what with Holden winning the last 2 championships and leading this year as well ... obviously they are too fast for the Fords. It sucks. Give the poor Fords a chance I say.

Whats that, you say? HOLDEN want to get an adjustment?

Well, thats very sporting of them, recognising their dominance and wanting to make it an even playing field. They have been very reticent to do this in the past (e.g. AU). Great.

Whats that you say? THEY want to slow the Fords down? Eh?

Who said this? Mark Skaife?

Is this the same Mark Skaife who can't get within a postcode of his teammate Tander? Is the same Mark Skaife, former legend, who can't keep his car on the track? Is this the guy who owns??? HRT? No vested interest there, of course ...

More importantly, is this the same Mark Skaife who dominated the AU Falcons for years and when THEY wanted an adjustment said (and I quote):

"The key reasons for Mark Skaife and HRT's success are that they have the strongest resource and research base, and that they are simply doing a better job than the opposition at the moment. You could ask whether it's fair to punish a team for doing a better job than the rest of the field?"

Rightio then ... who's doing a good job now, then?

Ironically, he now has a certain Mr Tander for a teammate. The same Mr Tander, who at the time of the AU demolition, said (and I quote):

"The TWR Commodores are faster than everyone else because they're the most well-funded, best resourced team, with a whole lot of people who have been working in this direction for a long time. It's not because their cars happen to be Holdens.. But slowing down Mark Skaife or anyone else isn't the answer. I feel if they penalise Mark for doing the best job and then I beat him, I haven't really beaten him. Have I?"

No, Garth - truer words were never spoken.

How long has Project Blueprint been going? 2003 from memory.

We'll leave the last word to Mr Craig Lowndes, also from the deep dark AU period (and I quote):

"The business of motorsport is a cyclical one with some teams at the peak and others working their way up the slope."

[peckstar]

well done deeks. you have more resources than HRT i reckon

[Rombles1]

Not that anyone cares what I think (being a one-eyed Holden fan and all), but I actually agree with the sentiments of all on this thread (sorry, should have warned you to sit down - read on when you recover from the shock). For the first time in history, I actually agree with both Pro-Racer and deeks6 at the same time (and Micklegend) and - god forbid - almost Billy Bigtime (almost) - all within the one thread.

The Holden teams need to work harder. The Fords are getting the results they are getting NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE A BETTER CAR (because they are not, and cannot possibly be while they have that horrible blue not-quite-round thing on the front) but BECAUSE THEY ARE SET UP BETTER. Holden have some good drivers. Unfortunately the required balance of good-driver-in-a-good-car-with-a-good-teammate just isn't there. They had a good mix the last 2 years, messed around with it, and broke it. The parity that is missing is in driver and team talent, not the cars (even within the same teams). I wonder how Dumbrell would have gone in #9?

Maybe HRT's data people should spend their time trying to fix the difference between Skaife and Tander (which admittedly often seems to be which cars they run into on track, and how hard they run into them), instead of looking for excuses. Also, Holden would be better off employing more/better race staff rather than more/better lawyers. No respect lies down that path.

Rusty is doing a good job - wonder how he would go with a young gun as a teammate, instead of the old cannon? Not suggesting Morris should retire (although maybe he should aim better when he hits the Fords ), but maybe they need to expand to 3 cars? Morris/Rusty/Webb?/Thompson?/D'Alberto?/JRichards? Would be good for the whole team.

[yap]

Great stuff Deeks

Really puts it all into perspective

[Micklegend]

In my analysis I forgot PMM.....many years I didnt rate them, but Rusty seems to have helped this along, once again though, one good driver, one driver that should think of hanging up his helmet.

I like Pros suggestion of moving Jase Richards....he has the ability, just cant stay away from carnage....

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Micklegend

In my analysis I forgot PMM.....many years I didnt rate them, but Rusty seems to have helped this along, once again though, one good driver, one driver that should think of hanging up his helmet.

I like Pros suggestion of moving Jase Richards....he has the ability, just cant stay away from carnage....

PMM have always had mid field cars (not back of the pack like most think) But everytime a young driver out does Morris, he fires them. Ingall would be gone too if it wasn't for the Supercheap dollars.

[RotorFan]

They should scrap the idea of parity and Project Blueprint altogether. I hate it.

I find it interesting that they dropped the parity "trigger" (and without telling anyone). Maybe this is because things are so close now that its no longer relevant.

From what I understand, Skaife has said that using the parity formula they had in previous years, it has been triggered in 2008. But since its been dropped they now have to go to the board.