Could Brawn Set a New Trend?

neilap · 15 Mar 2009, 16:24 (Ref:2416032)

By now everyone must know that the BrawnGP car is good. The debate will remain on their real pace as Flavio so elegantly and classily suggests. However, if teams like Force India see that they will be far behind this year shouldn't they do what Honda did? After all, it so far seems to have worked. Its almost like taking a year off to develop. Things that they have questions about they can put on this years car only for the benefit of the 2010 project.

If Maclaren really lack the pace to compete this year they could do the same. With their talent and resources, they would impress mightily not just set fast times in testing but more than likely dominate ala the MS era.

This could damage the way that F1 teams compete. Ferrari would run away with the title this year while Mac prepares for the next year, then the roles would reverse.

Sev · 15 Mar 2009, 18:03 (Ref:2416074)

I think there's a lot of reasons for Brawn GP's pace that would mean others wouldn't necessarily follow; and more to do with their particular situation than anything else. Except for Red Bull, I can't necessarily see any team that would be able to copy it.

1) Honda had a massive, massive technical infrastructure. Despite having insane managers, they had lots of high quality engineers, a good windtunnel, good sims, etc. Teams like Force India can only dream of this.

2) The rule changes threw everything in the air. Aside from everything else, Brawn clearly had a fair amount of fortune on hitting on the correct path. Compare this to say, Mclaren, who with similar resources are nowhere. A rule change like this won't happen again for ages, so this opportunity is passed.

3) Brawn would be being flattered by designing around a no-KERS base. KERS makes cars harder to setup, so they will have hit their sweet-spot quicker. Also, due to packaging, cooling, etc, a car which was never meant to have KERS should always be faster than a car which was meant to have it, but doesn't (which is what teams run right now). In the long term however, they may struggle to keep up when other teams do get their KERS systems working.

In short, assuming that Brawns pace is real, there is little to suggest that "early investment" would pay off as well as it has for them. Anyway, Williams was developing their car for almost as long and look where it got them!

Super Hans · 15 Mar 2009, 18:38 (Ref:2416106)

The pace of the Brawn isn't just down to the amount of time spent developing the car.

Knowlesy · 15 Mar 2009, 19:17 (Ref:2416132)

Sev hits the nail on the head.

Ralf's Girl · 15 Mar 2009, 21:40 (Ref:2416215)

Absolutely agree with Sev's post - sums up the situation perfectly.

neilap · 15 Mar 2009, 21:41 (Ref:2416217)

But the car was designed with KERS in mind. In fact that is one of the compromises that had to be made along with a way of mating the transmission with the new motor.
Also, I am not convinced tha KERS will be an advantage later in the season. The teams will not be allowed to make more power from it and well there is no real development on the motors. So they will have to depend on not using as much fuel and being more gentle on the tires. Teams are using it now because it will be mandatory, but right now its not advantageous except on the straights.

Your points are valid though. I figured people would see the massive improvement made by a compromised car and think this the better way to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sev

I think there's a lot of reasons for Brawn GP's pace that would mean others wouldn't necessarily follow; and more to do with their particular situation than anything else. Except for Red Bull, I can't necessarily see any team that would be able to copy it.

1) Honda had a massive, massive technical infrastructure. Despite having insane managers, they had lots of high quality engineers, a good windtunnel, good sims, etc. Teams like Force India can only dream of this.

2) The rule changes threw everything in the air. Aside from everything else, Brawn clearly had a fair amount of fortune on hitting on the correct path. Compare this to say, Mclaren, who with similar resources are nowhere. A rule change like this won't happen again for ages, so this opportunity is passed.

3) Brawn would be being flattered by designing around a no-KERS base. KERS makes cars harder to setup, so they will have hit their sweet-spot quicker. Also, due to packaging, cooling, etc, a car which was never meant to have KERS should always be faster than a car which was meant to have it, but doesn't (which is what teams run right now). In the long term however, they may struggle to keep up when other teams do get their KERS systems working.

In short, assuming that Brawns pace is real, there is little to suggest that "early investment" would pay off as well as it has for them. Anyway, Williams was developing their car for almost as long and look where it got them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

The pace of the Brawn isn't just down to the amount of time spent developing the car.

FPV GTHO · 16 Mar 2009, 05:23 (Ref:2416413)

Maybe it was just 3rd time lucky after the RA107 and RA108. It wasnt so much starting early either - the team are toting they started the BGP001 15 months ago, but typical development cycles are 18-24 months. They simply threw everything at the car early. They simply had the resources to explore everything - 4 windtunnels chasing aero concepts and both a KERS and non-KERS cars in development, although their fully mechanical KERS apparently didnt need as much cooling as the others anyway.

If Brawn's been impressive though, how would a full factory effort with 4 extra weeks of testing and the original engine have been? Honda no doubt wouldve been able to upgrade their engine like Renault.

Marbot · 16 Mar 2009, 08:41 (Ref:2416451)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

If Brawn's been impressive though, how would a full factory effort with 4 extra weeks of testing and the original engine have been? Honda no doubt wouldve been able to upgrade their engine like Renault.

They have missed out on the testing,but you wouldn't think so to look at the timing sheets.I have no doubt however that Honda's engine and KERS would have been of great value to Brawn GP.Maybe the KERS will still play its part ?

FPV GTHO · 16 Mar 2009, 08:43 (Ref:2416453)

They seem to suggest theyre not even going to think of KERS this year.

Marbot · 16 Mar 2009, 08:48 (Ref:2416457)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

They seem to suggest theyre not even going to think of KERS this year.

They were quick at the Barcelona test without a KERS,and that's got a fairly long straight.So from that you can deduce that maybe it's not really needed.

FPV GTHO · 16 Mar 2009, 08:59 (Ref:2416461)

Perhaps they learnt a thing or two about aero efficiency by running a Honda engine down 50hp.

nic.v814 · 16 Mar 2009, 12:24 (Ref:2416618)

Topping testing is a good performance for a new team but unfortunately it doesnt get you points or championships it just helps with development i think its best to wait until melbourne before we judge the speed of the cars

ivanalesi · 17 Mar 2009, 09:29 (Ref:2417226)

Btw, Felipe said that if Brawn is as fast w/o KERS, then it will be much faster with KERS! He reckoned it can give you between 0.2 and 0.5 depending on the track. So may be the reason they are so fast, is simply better work. BMW started earlier, had B car and they trail Brawn! May be only Ferrari, McLaren and Renault didn't start early.

Teretonga · 17 Mar 2009, 19:55 (Ref:2417708)

Given the new rules for entrants who wish to run under the new budget cap I think we may have a couple of Brwn approach copies in the very near future.

Running a team under a no KERS, or cheap KERS approach, may be really beneficial ands competitive. The new brawn proves that simple may be the best approach fro a 'private' team.

FPV GTHO · 18 Mar 2009, 03:40 (Ref:2417978)

But Brawn's approach only worked because of the resources they had at hand, like 4 wind tunnels for instance.

BootsOntheSide · 22 Mar 2009, 10:48 (Ref:2421930)

Four wind tunnels are no guarantee of a competitive car, although they undoubtedly help, and will help even more in an age of reduced testing. However, if KERS is worth no more than 0.5 seconds a lap, it should be possible to stay close to a team which has moved resources towards the system, particularly as there are so few 'power' circuits today.

Marbot · 22 Mar 2009, 11:51 (Ref:2421965)

Four wind tunnels didn't help the 2007 or 2008 cars either.

tator2001uk · 22 Mar 2009, 22:41 (Ref:2422301)

why on earth have the bookies put button and barichello favourites for not only the aus gp bu the championship too!! odds of near 4/1

Marbot · 23 Mar 2009, 00:25 (Ref:2422349)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tator2001uk

why on earth have the bookies put button and barichello favourites for not only the aus gp bu the championship too!! odds of near 4/1

Because the Brawn F1 car really is that good.

Smokey 6 litre · 23 Mar 2009, 05:05 (Ref:2422432)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tator2001uk

why on earth have the bookies put button and barichello favourites for not only the aus gp bu the championship too!! odds of near 4/1

i think because the testing form show's they're possibly good enough to win and the interest in the new team makes people having a punt on the Braw GP GP pair a bit more likely. The Bookies are probably concerned about being bitten in the arse by a shock win with long odds.

FPV GTHO · 23 Mar 2009, 12:26 (Ref:2422673)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

Four wind tunnels didn't help the 2007 or 2008 cars either.

2007 and 2008 they had a bike engineer as senior technical director.

sunny.traveller · 23 Mar 2009, 12:35 (Ref:2422683)

Hmmm, if BrawnGP make it through to third qualy in Australia then, and only then, will I dare to allow myself to consider that they really have a chance of doing superbly this season.

**Adam43** · 23 Mar 2009, 12:42 (Ref:2422694)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokey 6 litre

i think because the testing form show's they're possibly good enough to win and the interest in the new team makes people having a punt on the Braw GP GP pair a bit more likely. The Bookies are probably concerned about being bitten in the arse by a shock win with long odds.

That is exactly it, bookies don't only set their odds on what they think. They also take into account betting behaviour, they have probably had a lot of bets on Brawn and are managing the portfolio of bets.

You can see a similar effect with the location of the bookie. I bet that the odds on Hamilton winning are generally lower in Britain than they are in, say, Spain.

Marbot · 23 Mar 2009, 13:00 (Ref:2422711)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

2007 and 2008 they had a bike engineer as senior technical director.

This would explain a lot,like for example,why the cars seemed to be happier on two wheels rather than four.

Jeff 8 · 26 Mar 2009, 08:12 (Ref:2425050)

Are the others sandbagging?

Jeff

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