Dario, legend or not?

[cds_uk]

Just curious as to what you all think, i would hardly call myself an indycar nut, i make a point of watching the 500, i will happily watch a race if i catch it at the right time and i always check the results when they are out but what do the real indy fans think, can Dario be mentioned in the same breath as your Foyt's, Unsers, Andretti's? I would have to say yes, but what do i know.

[Jonerz]

He has stacked some very impressive results and can still deliver as the field returns to pre-split depth in terms of driver and team talent. I think he has seen an explosion of results when he is in one of the five best cars on the grid, but he did that against a stiffer field than Scheckter, Wheldon and even Dixie have managed in the same situation. I think he might be the best driver of this era given his ability to put together results. He can win the 500, he can bring home a title, no one delivers like Franchitti does. I'm not sure if you put the entire field in a Porsche Cup car or a Formula Ford that Dario would have perhaps even a top five lap time, but Dario is a fabulous race driver.

His legend will grow after he retires. But how big his name becomes in the annals of Indianapolis 500 lore is dependent on how this era is seen. Are we in the enlightenment? Or his he the dominant power in the dark ages?

I love Dario as a man (he was my favorite driver outside Greg Moore when I started watching CART in the late-nineties, and he was Greg's best pal) and I am really taken by his nose for the front of the field. He has proven to me he can win in real cars (CART cars of the 90's) and he has proven he can beat tough fields in the immensely difficult Indianapolis 500 (this year). He is a student of the sport and like Marino is a total history buff so what isn't to like? His goofy hair and his over the top wife? But seriously, Dario is brilliant. Like I say, his legacy hinges on how history views his period at Indianapolis and in open-wheel generally.

Chris

[Hawkwood]

Considering what he has achieved; yes.
However, people don't normally become legends while in their prime I think. He'll 'become' a legend after he retires and the new crop are still compared with him.

[Paradise City]

Yes. His face is featured on the Borg Warner Trophy, so yes. Everyone on there enjoys immortality. The face on the trophy is a simple concept but was a great innovation. It gives whoever won that race legendary status.

[gomick]

These blokes become legends after they retire - give him 10/15/20 years when the "legends" today have all passed on...
Will Sebby Bourdais be remembered as a legend for winning 4 Champcar titles

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by gomick

Will Sebby Bourdais be remembered as a legend for winning 4 Champcar titles

Precisely why I have said we have to wait to see how history views Dario's accomplishments in the context of the era he drove in. The cars leave something to desire, and for the first part of his IRL career the 500 fields would struggle to reach 20 top-quality drivers.

The fact that he is on the Borg Warner trophy certainly means he will be remembered though. Those who said that are correct. Legend? We'll see.

Chris

[gomick]

2 of his 3 "500" victories where when the series (IRL & Champcar) had merged back to 1, not much more he can do...

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by gomick

2 of his 3 "500" victories where when the series (IRL & Champcar) had merged back to 1, not much more he can do...

I agree, and if you read my first post I argue in his favor. And there is no denying that this year's race was one of the best, and perhaps one of the toughest to win. If you have the incredible golden age of speed of the 80's and 90's followed by the dark period early this century, followed by another golden era in five or ten years time will people discount what Dario did and who he did it against because it was done around IndyCar's downtime? We can't answer those questions yet. He is certainly an all-star, or Hall of Fame caliber guy. Given the equipment he has raced and the guys he has raced against he has stood out as perhaps the best of the era. Does his name deserve to be seen on the IndyCar Mt. Rushmore with Foyt, Andretti, Unser and Mears? We'll see.

Chris

[Peat]

Absolutley, when he's no longer racing, it'll be nice to recall his achievements. At the moment though it's more of 'Oh look, Dario wins. AGAIN. yawn.'

[cptkablamo]

Dario is ceratainly the cream of the crop right now along with Power. He has done everything lately that he can. Like Bourdais, you can only race against the people you can race against. He performed admirably in the late 1990s. Where Bourdais foray into F1 will always be held against him, Franchitti in Nascar will be the same.
His moment in history will be dictated by what else happened in the sport, which is a shame.
While he and Bourdais could have been good enough to be held amongst the best ever, the state of the sport when they raced will probably mean they won't be held in as higher regard as they should.

[Knowlesy]

Dario has proven himself over a long period of time. He was right up there pushing JPM when CART was at a peak and he is showing his class and experience in a, no doubt, less strong category today.

I think back to his less impressive years (he never seemed to do much at a dominant AGR for a while, NASCAR was awful) but still I don't think this can tarnish his legacy for me.

He is simply Dario Franchitti, three times Indianapolis 500 winner. How nice to say that about someone so in love with the sport's rich history as well.

[formerf1champ]

Amazing. When I was was at work today, I thought "When I get onto the computer I'll ask the Yanks on 10 10ths if they think Franchitti is a legit 3-time 500 winner" and then, I see this thread! I'm not sure he'd even win one 500 in any other period of the race's history, at least recent history. Just think, it's pretty good odds he'll win 5 500s!

As far as the Indy 500 specifically is concerned, from what I know of the race, despite winning as many as Booby Unser and Johnny Rutherford, I'm not sure if you can rate him as highly as those two, even some single 500 winners. I would even put Castroneves in in the same boat. Having said that, it's not their doing that their careers have run at the same time as the embarrassment called the IRL. Both are guns.

Originally Posted by cds_uk

Just curious as to what you all think

I think if you have to ask the question, the answer is automatically a "no".

[marcostraz]

Dario is absolutly a legend for me...3 Indy 500, 4 IndyCar titles, 1 Daytona 24h...he showed he is fast in the ovals, in the road courses, in the street races...he showed he is fast fast with IndyCars and Sport Cars...his numbers and his performances show he is the best of our times...

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by marcostraz

Dario is absolutly a legend for me...3 Indy 500, 4 IndyCar titles, 1 Daytona 24h...he showed he is fast in the ovals, in the road courses, in the street races...he showed he is fast fast with IndyCars and Sport Cars...his numbers and his performances show he is the best of our times...

If he could add another win at Indy 500, he could join the likes of Al Unser and A.J. Foyt.

Of course, I want him to win the Daytona 500 as well as the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

[marcostraz]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

If he could add another win at Indy 500, he could join the likes of Al Unser and A.J. Foyt.

Of course, I want him to win the Daytona 500 as well as the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

I also hope for him to win a lot of races...but if his career ended today, his palmareas already spoke for him...

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

...and for the first part of his IRL career the 500 fields would struggle to reach 20 top-quality drivers.

I think if you go back and look at the glory era you'll find it wasn't so filled with glory when you have some years like '89 where 3rd was 6 laps down, '91 where 6th was 12 laps down, and those were hardly anomalies. Now that is down to less speed difference between equipment but in turn that would make it more difficult for a driver to win races now than say 20 years ago. Al Unser Jr. in 1994 for example everyone knows won effectively a 3-car race and the other 2 competitors (Tracy and Fittipaldi) didn't finish. It's a bit like Schumacher during the uber-dominant Ferrari years. He only had one guy he had to beat and that guy wasn't allowed to beat him most of the time. Yeah, the Ferrari was an awesome car but it being an awesome car in turn takes away from the level of accomplishment of the driver.

On the broader question, no, he's not Mario or A.J. and he never will be. There's a reason that Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt across the broad motorsports spectrum of today are more thought of than Richard Petty, and that's because Petty was dominant in one form of the sport where during his prime he had the best or near-best car, and he never left that form of the sport. Mario and A.J. in contrast won in multiple forms of the sport, and in a lot of instances as outsiders. Mario and A.J. won Daytona 500s back before the Daytona 500 became a cluster on determining a winner. Dario flamed out of NASCAR in four months. That's not entirely Dario's fault, racing has changed to where people focus on one thing and that's it. Which is fine I guess, but in turn that means this generation's drivers in my mind of almost all series cannot compare to past generations. That's why I think so much of Robby Gordon. This man has won SCORE off-road races in Baja, CART races before the split for a B-level team in Walker, NASCAR races for B-level teams, sportscar races. He's as close as you will get today to a multi-talented driver doing everything at the same time unless you go into drivers that have done career changes in the middle, and the best of those for American-based auto racing I think has to be Tony Stewart. Dario for his career has done really good in Indycar and famously sucked in NASCAR and hasn't done much else. Tony won three USAC titles in the same year, something Mario nor A.J. nor anyone else had ever come close to doing before, then was the best early IRL guy by far when his motor would not blow up (there was one race I remember at I think Loudon where he had lapped everyone twice and then the car quit), and then he went into NASCAR and won 3 Cup titles including one as a team owner. To bring the point home he did the best ever Memorial Day Double by a driver getting 6th at Indy and 3rd at Charlotte in 2001, being the only time anyone ever completed all 1100 miles in all the attempts.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

I think if you go back and look at the glory era you'll find it wasn't so filled with glory when you have some years like '89 where 3rd was 6 laps down, '91 where 6th was 12 laps down, and those were hardly anomalies. Now that is down to less speed difference between equipment but in turn that would make it more difficult for a driver to win races now than say 20 years ago. Al Unser Jr. in 1994 for example everyone knows won effectively a 3-car race and the other 2 competitors (Tracy and Fittipaldi) didn't finish. It's a bit like Schumacher during the uber-dominant Ferrari years. He only had one guy he had to beat and that guy wasn't allowed to beat him most of the time. Yeah, the Ferrari was an awesome car but it being an awesome car in turn takes away from the level of accomplishment of the driver.

The reason for the laps difference in finishing orders was partly due to more difference in cars and more fragile cars, which also made it harder to win the race in those days, Michael Andretti is my exhibit A as far as that is concerned.

I also counter it with the IRL formula of cars is notably easier to drive relative to the CART and USAC era cars. Dario is the best of his generation and I contend that had he been born twenty years earlier he would have legendary status. I think he will be remembered as the best of his era but will have the frustrating asterisk that is no fault of his own. Seabass, Dario, Helio, Kenny Brack, Will Power... They all get a raw deal in how they will be viewed, I imagine.

Another frustrating example is Greg Moore. A remarkable talent in CART who was on his way to drive for the Captain, perhaps a CART title, a 500 win and a Formula 1 ride with McLaren before the worst possible thing happened. Despite agreement from CART fans that he was a legend and one of AOWR's greats, there is a large contingent of fans who don't see Moore as a legend because he never made it to the Speedway. Legacies are victims of this turbulent era in open-wheel, it's quite unfortunate.

Dario is a winner, that is how I will remember him forever; he won races, big races and was tough to beat.

Chris

[Ultimo]

When in think of cross-generational comparisons, I think of two battling viewpoints: rose tinted glasses and the recency effect.

On one hand, things in the past are often spun into epic tales, with legendary heroes, and romance. The fact that the majority of the world are baby boomers in my eyes means that things from their halcyon days are often venerated in pop culture. On the other hand, we always like to declare something we have just seen "the best ever" or the "GOAT," and what have you.

I am far from an expert on open wheel racing, but results matter.

Dario has won the Indy 500 3 times, and he could tie or even break the all time mark in his career depending on how much longer he decides to race and how much longer he is competitive. He also has 4 titles and could add to that tally.

If this man is not considered a legend 20 or 30 years from now when the children of the baby boomers who watched Dario race in their youth pine for their own halcyon days and look through their rose tinted glasses, then something will be seriously wrong with them.

In short, even though I don't know too much about this kind of racing, yes, I think Dario is a legend.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

The reason for the laps difference in finishing orders was partly due to more difference in cars and more fragile cars, which also made it harder to win the race in those days.

Jonerz, internal contradiction is thy name. If there were more difference in cars, that means when the green flag dropped less cars had a chance to win because they'd've been too slow to ever reach the lead. Do I need to put up the qualifying times for the '87 Long Beach GP again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXOwaKjqpzs

1Mario Andretti -65.886- 100.00%
2Roberto Guerrero -66.804- 101.39%
3Emerson Fittipaldi -66.813- 101.41%
4Kevin Cogan -66.924- 101.58%
5Michael Andretti -67.148- 101.92%
6Al Unser Jr. -67.364- 102.24%
7Bobby Rahal -67.561- 102.54%
8Geoff Brabham -67.689- 102.74%
9Danny Sullivan -68.465- 103.91%
10Tom Sneva -68.577- 104.08%
11Josele Garza -68.631- 104.17%
12Arie Luyendyk -68.773- 104.38%
13Jeff MacPherson -68.996- 104.72%
14Fabrizio Barbazza -69.103- 104.88%
15Ludwig Heimrath Jr. -69.449- 105.41%
16Chip Robinson -69.663- 105.73%
17Didier Theys -69.684- 105.76%
18Rick Mears -69.687- 105.77%
19Randy Lewis -70.115- 106.42%
20Rocky Moran -70.234- 106.60%
21Dick Simon -70.287- 106.68%
22Johnny Rutherford -71.348- 108.29%
23Dennis Firestone -72.960- 110.74%
24Tony Bettenhausen Jr. -73.472- 111.51%

So in 1987, the 105% standard used at Indianapolis this past weekend in the race if applied to 1987 Long Beach qualifying, only 14 cars would've started this race. (Yes, I know road courses are normally 107%, just doing like for like.)

Sneva started 10th, ran pretty much an error-free race and finished 3rd at 104%. The 104% qualifier at Indy this past weekend would've started 31st.

I also counter it with the IRL formula of cars is notably easier to drive relative to the CART and USAC era cars.

Yeah, it's called computers. They've been a pretty big deal on all series across the planet.

Can you also please elaborate on where this driving knowledge you have comes from? I take it you've driven all three eras of cars to make such a broad statement.


Seriously, what the eff does Power get a raw deal on? He's done so much more in the past three years than he ever did before for Team Australia or whatever that team was called that only existed to have a loss-making event halfway across the world for 90% of the teams in the series. The man is widely held to be the best road course racer in the series. This is why I hate interacting with internet racefans and the guys in teams I talk to are so correct on boards like this on the complete lack of attachment to reality as people seem to have grasped on to some mythological account of events that never existed outside of 173 people on a message board inventing a story to self-satisfy themselves. It's people like this on the internet is why politics is so horrible nowadays. They don't like reality so what they do is form their own account of events to create a reality that makes them feel better inside.

Now back to Power, he raced in ChampCar where there were maybe 5-6 drivers of note and the rest were ride buyers and lost almost all the time to Bourdais. Bourdais' race results in ChampCar are about as meaningful as the early IRL if you want to rank eras because that's the level of competition was up against. To provide a sportscar analogy, Bourdais winning races in ChampCar is like giving the factory Audi LMPs credit for beating an Intersport Lola. If you beat a bunch of ride buyers you didn't accomplish anything by definition, because if their driving skill was worth anything, they would get paid.

Another frustrating example is Greg Moore.

My frustrating example is Jeff Gordon. You want to talk about him?

Dario is a winner, that is how I will remember him forever; he won races, big races and was tough to beat.s

Yeah, he's a winner. Great driver. He's just not a legend, and that'd be true if there was no split. If he was truly in the very rare air of Racing Legend, he'd've succeeded in NASCAR because he'd've been good enough to overcome the difference in cars. That's what "Legends" do.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Yeah, he's a winner. Great driver. He's just not a legend, and that'd be true if there was no split. If he was truly in the very rare air of Racing Legend, he'd've succeeded in NASCAR because he'd've been good enough to overcome the difference in cars. That's what "Legends" do.

He may have not succeeded in NASCAR, but you've not mentioned what else he did succeed at. He won races in DTM/ITC against much more experienced touring car legends, he's had a class win (and overall 2nd place, only behind Audi) at Sebring in his first attempt and he has a Daytona 24 win, and another podium. Those count for a fair bit IMO.

[Razzzor]

As much as I dislike Dario, I think he'll easily be considered legend status once he retires. Come on, he's won 4 titles and 3 Indy 500s. Most of the 'legends' haven't had that much success.

What frustrates me is how close he's been on winning ALL those titles, and when it came down to the end of the year, his opposition got rotten luck.

2007: Dixon runs out of fuel on the last corner of the last lap.
2007 Indy 500: just happens to not pit when everyone else does and the rain comes, ending the race early.

2009: can't stay with Dixon (leading the points) and Briscoe so only strategy is to run the whole race in conservation mode hoping for no yellows. How many oval races in the history of IRL have we got a yellow-less race? 3? Well, this one went without a yellow.

2010: should easily be Power's title, but he hits the wall in the final race with a big points lead, handing the title to Dario.
2010 Indy 500: well this one he did actually deserve, he dominated it.

2011: again should be Power's title, but pit stop error and some miraculous pit stop from Ganassi put Dario into the lead and no one could pass.

2012 Indy 500: well Ganassi did have the fastest car, but at the end it was only Dario right-place right-time that had him ahead of Sato and Dixon. Dixon was just as fast.

Ultimately of course a championship is year long, and Dario had to put himself within the points lead into the final round. He's undoubtedly one of the best in Indycar at the moment. Both he and Dixon seem to leave Rahal and Kimbell in the distance, so they're both very good drivers.

He dominated Paul Tracy at Team Green in 1998 winning 3 races and 5 poles while Tracy's best result was a 5th, no poles.

In 1999 he was extremely close to beating Montoya in a far faster Ganassi. Montoya was the fastest that year, easily, so Franchitti was very lucky that so much just kept going wrong for Montoya to even give him a shot at the title.

He seemed to have a bit of a career slump after that. Struggled in 2000 to 2002, maybe from that pre-season crash, then another big crash in 2003 which put him on the sidelines. Kanaan and Wheldon well and try owned him in 2004, 2005 and 2006. He was kind of always third best at Andretti/Green. Hell even the massively overrated (imo) Marco Andretti beat him in 2006 in the same car.

It's not till 2007 that he found form again and has won ever since, but not necessarily the best in any of those years. To be honest as I'm looking over his stats, he might not even have a drive anymore if he didn't suddenly start winning again in 2007.

I'd be interested in finding out from him why he struggled for 2000-2006. Maybe it was a few big crashes that kept setting him back?

I don't think you can count his Nascar run at all. Nascar has very little to do with driving skill. I really rate Tony Stewart, and Jeff Gordon was great in his day, but Montoya and Ambrose are probably the best raw talent in Nascar at the moment. Put Jimmie Johnson or Dale Jr into F1 and see if they can win 7 races against Michael Schumacher. It would be a joke. So Dario struggling in Nascar means nothing.

Just looking at his pre-America stats, Jan Magnussen owned him 1994 in the best car in British F3, winning 14 times to Dario's single win. And then Bernd Schneider owned him in DTM 1995, but then Bernd was quite a lot more experienced. He did get a bit closer to Bernd in 1996 though. He was very average in 1997 in his first year in Cart and did come on strong until the end 1997.

Very much and on and off career for Franchitti actually, but he seems to be on right now with Ganassi.

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

As much as I dislike Dario, I think he'll easily be considered legend status once he retires. Come on, he's won 4 titles and 3 Indy 500s. Most of the 'legends' haven't had that much success.

What frustrates me is how close he's been on winning ALL those titles, and when it came down to the end of the year, his opposition got rotten luck.

2007: Dixon runs out of fuel on the last corner of the last lap.
2007 Indy 500: just happens to not pit when everyone else does and the rain comes, ending the race early.

2009: can't stay with Dixon (leading the points) and Briscoe so only strategy is to run the whole race in conservation mode hoping for no yellows. How many oval races in the history of IRL have we got a yellow-less race? 3? Well, this one went without a yellow.

2010: should easily be Power's title, but he hits the wall in the final race with a big points lead, handing the title to Dario.
2010 Indy 500: well this one he did actually deserve, he dominated it.

2011: again should be Power's title, but pit stop error and some miraculous pit stop from Ganassi put Dario into the lead and no one could pass.

2012 Indy 500: well Ganassi did have the fastest car, but at the end it was only Dario right-place right-time that had him ahead of Sato and Dixon. Dixon was just as fast.

Ultimately of course a championship is year long, and Dario had to put himself within the points lead into the final round. He's undoubtedly one of the best in Indycar at the moment. Both he and Dixon seem to leave Rahal and Kimbell in the distance, so they're both very good drivers.

He dominated Paul Tracy at Team Green in 1998 winning 3 races and 5 poles while Tracy's best result was a 5th, no poles.

In 1999 he was extremely close to beating Montoya in a far faster Ganassi. Montoya was the fastest that year, easily, so Franchitti was very lucky that so much just kept going wrong for Montoya to even give him a shot at the title.

He seemed to have a bit of a career slump after that. Struggled in 2000 to 2002, maybe from that pre-season crash, then another big crash in 2003 which put him on the sidelines. Kanaan and Wheldon well and try owned him in 2004, 2005 and 2006. He was kind of always third best at Andretti/Green. Hell even the massively overrated (imo) Marco Andretti beat him in 2006 in the same car.

It's not till 2007 that he found form again and has won ever since, but not necessarily the best in any of those years. To be honest as I'm looking over his stats, he might not even have a drive anymore if he didn't suddenly start winning again in 2007.

I'd be interested in finding out from him why he struggled for 2000-2006. Maybe it was a few big crashes that kept setting him back?

I don't think you can count his Nascar run at all. Nascar has very little to do with driving skill. I really rate Tony Stewart, and Jeff Gordon was great in his day, but Montoya and Ambrose are probably the best raw talent in Nascar at the moment. Put Jimmie Johnson or Dale Jr into F1 and see if they can win 7 races against Michael Schumacher. It would be a joke. So Dario struggling in Nascar means nothing.

Just looking at his pre-America stats, Jan Magnussen owned him 1994 in the best car in British F3, winning 14 times to Dario's single win. And then Bernd Schneider owned him in DTM 1995, but then Bernd was quite a lot more experienced. He did get a bit closer to Bernd in 1996 though. He was very average in 1997 in his first year in Cart and did come on strong until the end 1997.

Very much and on and off career for Franchitti actually, but he seems to be on right now with Ganassi.

On all the countbacks in final races you mentioned, there are likely instances in season where his opponents may have benefited from his misfortune. However, it is the title deciding race race where impressions are made.

Some counterarguments - in '07, Dixon needed a bit more fuel. How close was Dario to him when he ran out? I saw that race live and flipped out. I know Dixon just ran out, but honestly if the situation was so tight, a quarter second or something more of fuel coulda lost it for him anyway. OK a stretch, but just illustrating how things can be skewed. The Indy that year his team/he could well have made a strategy call based on data that the race would be canned, so he may not have just happened not to pit. 2010, Will Power crashed; end of story. You crash, you lose. This year, Dario coulda been at the right place at the right time due to cunning, timing, and strategy. Dario seems to so often been at the right place and time. Maybe there's a reason for this? I think the best driver in IC right now is Will Power, but he doesn't have the same results as Dario. Yes, we can SABRmetricize both of their careers, but at one point or another - like you said - Dario is the one with his face on the BorgWarner trophy 3 times and with 4 titles. Results matter.

I don't think you can count his Nascar run at all. Nascar has very little to do with driving skill. I really rate Tony Stewart, and Jeff Gordon was great in his day, but Montoya and Ambrose are probably the best raw talent in Nascar at the moment. Put Jimmie Johnson or Dale Jr into F1 and see if they can win 7 races against Michael Schumacher. It would be a joke. So Dario struggling in Nascar means nothing.

Bold added for emphasis.

I strongly disagree. I was just talking on another forum about how it irritates me when people slag NASCAR/oval drivers. I used to think NASCAR was easy and their drivers sucked when I was much younger and only an F1 fan (and young and foolish and a Canadian patriot), but I soon learned NASCAR is extremely difficult and has a very deep pool of talent to draw on. Jimmie Johnson is an exceptional talent. He's got 5 titles in a series that has some of the greatest parity of any top level motorsport. If NASCAR has little to do with driving talent, why do the best "raw talents" in your estimation struggle so much to win? 3 wins between the two of them in a combined 244 races in 12 years in the top flite... Yeah. What logic are you using here? The real story is that NASCAR - like the series or not, and I don't - is a totally different discipline from F1 or V8SC that mostly races on ovals which are very unrelated to the road circuits these guys used to race on, and in cars that are totally different from what they were used to driving.

Full disclosure: I am not a NASCAR fan, and I only watch IC here and there. I cheered for Dario in past and still sometimes do as I am a Scot by blood, and didn't follow the series enough to develop being a fan of a certain driver for anything more than nationalistic reasons, but I have learned he is not well liked by many for the right or wrong reasons and thus like him less.

[Paradise City]

NASCAR is almost a different sport. Akin to comparing rugby with soccer. I don't think Dario got a good crack at NASCAR anyway. The form of Earnhardt-Ganassi at the time was inconsistent. They are consistently dismal now of course. I don't know whether he would've made it in NASCAR, the DTM isn't an apt comparison as it was heavy on technology and ovals are different animals.

Really puts the achievements of AJ Foyt into its proper perspective. LeMans, NASCAR, Indycar. Truly a titan.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

On all the countbacks in final races you mentioned, there are likely instances in season where his opponents may have benefited from his misfortune. However, it is the title deciding race race where impressions are made.

Bold added for emphasis.

I strongly disagree. I was just talking on another forum about how it irritates me when people slag NASCAR/oval drivers. I used to think NASCAR was easy and their drivers sucked when I was much younger and only an F1 fan (and young and foolish and a Canadian patriot), but I soon learned NASCAR is extremely difficult and has a very deep pool of talent to draw on. Jimmie Johnson is an exceptional talent. He's got 5 titles in a series that has some of the greatest parity of any top level motorsport. If NASCAR has little to do with driving talent, why do the best "raw talents" in your estimation struggle so much to win? 3 wins between the two of them in a combined 244 races in 12 years in the top flite... Yeah. What logic are you using here? The real story is that NASCAR - like the series or not, and I don't - is a totally different discipline from F1 or V8SC that mostly races on ovals which are very unrelated to the road circuits these guys used to race on, and in cars that are totally different from what they were used to driving.

Full disclosure: I am not a NASCAR fan, and I only watch IC here and there. I cheered for Dario in past and still sometimes do as I am a Scot by blood, and didn't follow the series enough to develop being a fan of a certain driver for anything more than nationalistic reasons, but I have learned he is not well liked by many for the right or wrong reasons and thus like him less.

I'm a big Dixon fan myself, being Kiwi. But I do notice he often gets left out of interviews while they focus on the usual suspects... Power, Helio, Kanaan, Franchitti, Andretti, previously Wheldon and Danica. Meanwhile Dixon will have finished 3rd or something and doesn't get an interview. So while everyone probably realises he's a nice bloke, he's not one of the media grabbing drivers.

I've often wondered about Franchitti and how popular he is. He has, over the years, been involved in plenty of incidents and got away with it whereas other drivers wouldn't have, so I suspect some fans might have got annoyed with this. I didn't realise he was quite unpopular though...

Re Nascar. Well it's the fact that guys like Villeneuve (son of one of the fastest racing drivers of all time...), Ambrose, Montoya to a degree, come to Nascar and only ever have a chance of winning on actual road tracks rather than ovals. It could be just that the other guys don't have enough experience and that's why the struggle outside the ovals, sure. Then again, we're talking about world class drivers here.

I think Montoya is the ultimate example, he's won F1 races, Daytona 24 hrs, Indy 500, Cart champion, and Nascar races. Who's more successful than that? Mario Andretti? In every series he's been in, he's been fast. Including pre Cart days. The fact that he struggles in Nascar means either 2 things - the Ganassi team is utter ****, or there's way more to Nascar than driver skill, because he's clearly a skilled driver and that's not enough to lift him into the top 10 in Nascar (apart from 2009 where he finished 8th). 2 wins in nearly 200 starts. You can't tell me Paul Menard, sitting ahead of him in points currently, is a better driver than Montoya and Ambrose. And the funny thing is, I actually think Montoya is a complete ******. I've disliked him since his arrogant Cart days. But I do respect his racing skill. The reason I rate Ambrose, firstly how he obliterates most of the field when it comes to road tracks, but he came to V8SC and very quickly started beating guys like Skaife and Lowndes. I rate Allmendinger as well... one of the only guys that could take the fight to Bourdais.

But anyway I'm really just generalising to a massive degree here... you could be right. And maybe Jimmie Johnson could be F1 champion material if his career path went that way. It's just my opinion that Nascar is all about car setup, and even Ayrton Senna could come to Nascar and get nowhere if he doesn't have a fast car and a team (including himself) that knows how to set the car up.

Re Indycar, yeah Will Power I agree is the best in that series at the moment. Took him a few years to get up to speed, but he's made Helio and Ryan look very average at the non-ovals. Again, suggesting ovals are more about setting a car up than being a great driver.

Re Dario at Indy 500... the funny thing was that on paper Dario wasn't in the right place right time, you needed to be in 2nd going into the last lap to have the best chance at winning, and making the move into turn 1. He was in the wrong place, but it just so happened that Sato spun up and the caution flew. Without Sato spinning, both Dixon or Sato, whoever was in second, should have passed him on that final lap. But only Dario would have the luck that the 2nd placed car would spin himself out so he could then cruise to the chequers under yellow. Dramatic, sure, but a bit of a sad final lap really.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

2007: Dixon runs out of fuel on the last corner of the last lap.
2007 Indy 500: just happens to not pit when everyone else does and the rain comes, ending the race early.

Ganassi continually makes fuel calculation errors, but more importantly, fuel was tight for both, and Dario ran 2nd the entire time which naturally conserves fuel. And the only reason Dario went into that race behind on points was Dixon every so conveniently took his foot off the brake whilst spinning and turned into Dario, costing him a win.

The Indy 500 he pitted because he had a puncture which put him off strategy, which was indeed luck.

2010: should easily be Power's title, but he hits the wall in the final race with a big points lead, handing the title to Dario.
2010 Indy 500: well this one he did actually deserve, he dominated it.

That's not quite true though. Dario lead by 12 points going into Homestead, Power didn't lead at all. And it isn't luck that Dario lead the race whilst Power struggled and eventually put it in the wall. You could say Power threw that away, but had they finished in the positions they were running, Dario would have be champion anyway. There was no luck there.

2012 Indy 500: well Ganassi did have the fastest car, but at the end it was only Dario right-place right-time that had him ahead of Sato and Dixon. Dixon was just as fast.

You could say that about anyone who won that race. The way the race played out required the winner to have a bit of luck at the end. It isn't a coincidence that Dario was in the right place at the right time. And there's no luck in coming from last to the lead either.