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14 Feb 2003, 20:42 (Ref:506888) | #1 | |
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How much natural talent did Mansell and Damon Hill really have?
I think the saying that they worked at their driving rather than having natural ability is a bit of a myth. Judging by Mansell's performance in Silverstone 1988 and Damon Hill's in Suzuka 1994, I would say that they had a fair bit of natural talent. After all, Mansell would have needed some natural talent to finish 2nd in a backmarker car in atrocious conditions in Silverstone 1988. And Damon Hill would also have needed some natural talent to beat Michael Schumacher in similarly atrocious conditons in Suzuka 1994.
Then again, you can have all the natural talent in the world, but you need to apply it correctly to be successful. Just ask Jean Alesi. |
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14 Feb 2003, 20:47 (Ref:506894) | #2 | ||
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On their day they showed signs of real genious. The trouble was that neither of them could really apply it often enough.
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14 Feb 2003, 21:26 (Ref:506946) | #3 | |
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they were totally different animals.......
Mansell .............. total utter racer !......always went for th overtaking move , pulled off many in supreme style , was up for it with anyone and everyone . Hill........very fast capable driver , but one who needed to work harder on the agression side ........ |
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MOTOR RACING ...The general idea is that the driver behind uses all his Skills, Tricks and Courage to try and overtake the guy ( or Girl ) in front ! |
14 Feb 2003, 21:33 (Ref:506957) | #4 | ||
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It was Nige that got me hooked on F1 so I guess he can't be that bad! I'm just glad I chose the Mexico GP 1990 for my first taste of F1.
Last edited by Damon; 14 Feb 2003 at 21:33. |
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14 Feb 2003, 21:36 (Ref:506963) | #5 | |
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I wouldn't jump to any conclusions, which you are doing when you characterize drivers by pointing out only one race.
Overall I would say Mansell's lack of sheer talent, the kind of talent that makes you recognize it at first site, was compensated by his total and utter devotion. It made him into the fighter that on occassion beat the talented guys who couldn't be bothered that much. That is sometimes the trouble with those who can rely solely on talent. Only Senna springs to mind as a driver who combined extreme amounts of talent with extreme amounts of devotion and fighting spirit. Well, maybe M. Schumacher as well. Hill was extremly capable behind the wheel of a Formula 1-car. Let there be no doubt about that. On speed he could be measured with the best of them. I'm not saying he would always come out the winner, but he would give em a run for their money. And in terms of setting up a car, he could get the job done. His weakness lay in on-track duelling. He simply wasn't up to it. Between the two, I would say in the end Damon was the better driver. But then again. I doubt that a driver of Damons style and character would be holding up in the era in which Mansell shined, whereas Mansell did show well in the 1994 Williams. |
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GP Driver meeting - Coulthard to Taku: "I wouldn´t have tried that move on Barrichello." Taku to Coulthard: "I know..." |
14 Feb 2003, 21:45 (Ref:506973) | #6 | ||
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I agree it's a tight call because they both have such different talents. Hill is quite possibly the best development driver ever. As you say he could really mix it with the best on his day as Suzuka '94 and Hungary '97 demonstrated.
I'de have to disagree that Mansell had no talent though. He had plenty of talent but it was often stifled by the greater ability of those around him at the time. Much like Moss, how can a driver expect to shine through with the likes of Senna and Prost around them? |
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14 Feb 2003, 22:02 (Ref:506998) | #7 | ||
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I'd say that Nigel had total natural talent, a "balls to the wall" driver, who on his day was the most exciting driver out there, and that included when Senna was out there. (not saying he was as good).
Damon, didn't have as much natural talent as say, Nigel or Michael, he had to work at it abit more, but proved that he could get the job done by winning a WDC and a race in a Jordan. (yes i know he only won because of Michaels accident with DC, but he was the only guy on the day to get anywhere Michaels sort of level) Last edited by Mr V; 14 Feb 2003 at 22:04. |
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That's so frickin uncool man! |
14 Feb 2003, 22:17 (Ref:507012) | #8 | ||
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Sure, Mansell provided us with much needed entertainment, but that wasn't the question. His style gained him to audience' vote, but is more a testament to his dedication than to his talent. Prost was most often boring, both on and off track, but so much more talented than Mansell ever was. It's just tempting to call those who entertain us talented. Having said that, of course Mansell was blessed with heaps of talent. He was a very very good driver. It's just that in his days there were a couple of drivers who were better. How would Mansell compare to Coulhard? How would Coulthard compare to Damon Hill (season 1994 might give us a hint of an answer)? |
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GP Driver meeting - Coulthard to Taku: "I wouldn´t have tried that move on Barrichello." Taku to Coulthard: "I know..." |
14 Feb 2003, 22:18 (Ref:507014) | #9 | ||
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Mansell used to grab the car by the scruff of the neck and drive.
He could pull off passes that seemed impossible. I especially enjoyed watching the occassions when he outdrove Piquet as the 'number two' driver. Great stuff! Damon was different. He wasn't balls out, but knew how do develop a car. Also, in qualifying you could watch him in car and think he was driving slow but it turned out to be the pole lap. Such was his very smooth driving. In Hungary 1997 driving the arrows he proved he could drive. It's just a shame he found it difficult to adapt to grooved tyres. You may have the best car and win the championship, but you still need to be able to drive it. |
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Successfully crashing a probe into the moon is like saying you successfully swam the English Channel by having your corpse wash up on the beach. |
14 Feb 2003, 22:20 (Ref:507019) | #10 | |||
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That's so frickin uncool man! |
14 Feb 2003, 22:21 (Ref:507020) | #11 | ||
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14 Feb 2003, 22:25 (Ref:507023) | #12 | ||
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I've got a tape of clippings of footage from all his F1 wins. He is something special and truly missed. So no argument here. |
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14 Feb 2003, 22:29 (Ref:507028) | #13 | ||
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What i meant by "sort of level" was that Michael had the best car on the day (in comparison to DC atleast, Mika we'll never know about) and Damon managed to keep a much faster Ferrari behind him..........IN A JORDAN, obviously, once Michael was past, he was off and running, posting laps 2 seconds faster than Damon, but Damon was posting laps 2 seconds faster than everyone else, that included a McLaren and the second Ferrari, thats what i meant by "sort of level"
As an aside, i chose that line "Michaels sort of level", as oppossed to "Michaels level" very carefully as i knew that you TGF fans would be jumping down my throat about it. You need to stop being so insecure about such statements Last edited by Mr V; 14 Feb 2003 at 22:30. |
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That's so frickin uncool man! |
14 Feb 2003, 22:35 (Ref:507038) | #14 | ||
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14 Feb 2003, 22:43 (Ref:507051) | #15 | |
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Strange nobody is comparing the backgrounds of Damon and Nigel with the backgrounds of Schuey and the Great Ayrton Senna.
Damon drove his first racecar (f.ford) when he was already 24 years old, and it took him almost 10 years to get to F1 after that, mostly due to lack of money (and that for the son of a double F1 champion, albeit a dead one). Nigel had to sell his house to get a handful of uncompetitive F3-drives in his days... Hardly ideal, wouldn't you agree, when you consider that Schumacher and Senna did their first laps in karting at the tender age of 4-5 years old and neither of them had to worry about getting up the junior ladder: Senna because of his God-given talent and dedication and a very rich family, Schuey because of his manager Willi. I honestly think that if Damon & Nigel were born in respectively Kerpen and Sao Paolo and Schuey and Ayrton were born in poor English families... we'd never would've heard about Schuey, Damon and Nige would've been considered as is alain prost today, and Ayrton Senna... well, he's Ayrton Senna! |
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14 Feb 2003, 22:49 (Ref:507062) | #16 | ||
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GP Driver meeting - Coulthard to Taku: "I wouldn´t have tried that move on Barrichello." Taku to Coulthard: "I know..." |
14 Feb 2003, 23:11 (Ref:507110) | #17 | |
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NiceGuyEddie,
What do you mean I can't back it up? Sure I can, don't tell me it's coincidence then that Raikkonen, Button, Davidson, Alonso... -who were superstars in karts- made it to the top in just 2 or 3 seasons whereas others like McNish, Firman, De La Rosa, Wilson needed a lot more time... and don't expect one of them to be DWC one day. |
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14 Feb 2003, 23:17 (Ref:507121) | #18 | |
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You can't back up because there is no telling where Senna would end up if he came from the background of Nigel Mansell or vice versa.
And like I said, both of them were given the control of F1cars which were the best in their seasons (Williams FW14B and McLaren MP4/5) and in those cockpits, it doesnt matter where you had to came from before you got there. In those cockpits you go about your business. And Senna simply was better at it than Mansell. Money and knowing the right people me make it easier to get there, but it doesn't make it any easier in the cockpit. It doesn't buy you talent mind you. |
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GP Driver meeting - Coulthard to Taku: "I wouldn´t have tried that move on Barrichello." Taku to Coulthard: "I know..." |
14 Feb 2003, 23:50 (Ref:507157) | #19 | ||
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Mansell has plenty of natural talent, but backed that up with courage, determination and devotion, which made him into the fearsom driver that he was.
The only reason people think he didn't have talent was because he was beside Senna and Prost for most of his career. |
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Sunderland Til I Die! |
15 Feb 2003, 00:35 (Ref:507183) | #20 | |
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I was never a Mansell fan. I'd been a huge fan of Senna the first day I ever saw him race - in a FF1600 at Mallory Park in 1981. I was happy to cheer Senna at British Grands Prix while the rest roared on 'Our Nige'. Copse, lap one, 1990, went wonderfully quiet ...
Now, when I look back with hindsight, I did enjoy watching Mansell. He was a fantastic racer, but only when the car was running right. And that was a difference. Another was that after races Senna spoke with great intelligence and intellect, whereas Mansell ... turned me right off. However, to get anywhere near a Senna, a Prost, a Rosberg or a Piquet your physical and mental make-up had to be of the right stuff. All were awesome, with Senna, for me, top of the pile and by quite some way. He just seemed to lack that final, essential something. To say he lost the world title in '86 because of a blow-out ... I don't agree with that. Every race counts towards the title, not just the last one. While it was tragic that such events should conspire against him in the final round, imagine if, six months earlier, he'd not tried winning Brazil on the opening lap, or, later, remembered to select first gear on the grid in Mexico ... On saying that, as much as I disliked Mansell at the time, I look back and think 'cheeky bugger' for daring to brave it out with Senna down the pit straight at Barcelona! Damon Hill, as a racer, does not compare to any of them. He had his day at Suzuka, 1994, sure, but that's the only race people defending him can find to use as their example. He should have thrashed Schumacher in '95, the Williams far superior to the Benetton in the first half the year, but he failed to capitalise. He just did not have that killer instinct a natural born winner has. Bear this in mind. Brazil 1994: Senna spins out while chasing Schumacher for the lead, at the time a lap up on Williams team-mate Hill ... One thing I do know: the Schuey and Montoya fans, although they hate each other's respective drivers now, will look back one day and realise just what they are missing. |
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15 Feb 2003, 00:44 (Ref:507193) | #21 | ||
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The reason Mansell braved it outagaint Senna in Barcelona was that never in his career did Mansell let Senna intimidate him. It was great!
Those times are a byegone era. If only something like that would happen now. That moment will live with me forever. Last edited by Spudgun; 15 Feb 2003 at 00:46. |
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Successfully crashing a probe into the moon is like saying you successfully swam the English Channel by having your corpse wash up on the beach. |
15 Feb 2003, 00:49 (Ref:507198) | #22 | |||
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a) the Hill family was sued by the families of the dead personel in Grahams plane. (that crashed) and b) Damon prefered motorbikes, spent alot of his younger years racing them and was quite successful. Last edited by Mr V; 15 Feb 2003 at 00:51. |
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That's so frickin uncool man! |
15 Feb 2003, 01:50 (Ref:507241) | #23 | |
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Well I think that Damon was immensely talented but lacked "Balls of Steel"
Nigel has all the balls anyone would ever require. I think their driving reflected this! I saw Nigel put a huge hole in a concrete wall in Phoenix and shrug it off. Damon would have quit racing!! |
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15 Feb 2003, 02:02 (Ref:507248) | #24 | |||
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As for Nigel shrugging it off.....Never, i'm a big Nigel fan, but he would never have shrugged it off, he would have played on it, and as it happens, he had to have major back surgury after that accident. |
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That's so frickin uncool man! |
15 Feb 2003, 02:23 (Ref:507260) | #25 | |||
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Very ordinary
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Last edited by Valve Bounce; 15 Feb 2003 at 02:24. |
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