Time To Move To Euro Regs

[Robin Plummer]

I never thought I'd hear myself say this but 2004 is the time to a) Change the British Rallycross Championship to mirror FIA European Regs and b) drop Group B cars but let them run in a Classics section for enthusats.

It's time we had massive grids of multiple types of cars from all over Europe. Higher competetion, drivers that averge below 40 not over 50. The possibility of Euro Championship rounds like the good old days.

The restrictor in Supercar class should level out the competetion power wise and hopefully we could have some close racing.

P.S If the Irish pulled out of the British series how many Englishmen would be left in Supercar!

[BertMk2]

Yep, Euro regulations should be adopted across the board (same applies to touring cars as well as rallycross). It makes things far easier if everyone has a consistent set of regulations.

Non Irish supercar drivers? Doran, Bell, Manning, Briggs, Mundy, Cross, McCann?

[chunder]

The only problem with that is that if you did that the modified class would become more expensive. If you brought in Div 1 and Div 2. All the guys would have to go out and buy Civics, 306'6 and Clios. And who would buy the old cars, noone, so you are in a catch 22.
I think we are doing OK as we are. Stock Hatch is giving the organisers massive amounts of entry fee revenue and the other classes such as Super car and modified are ticking over.
If it aint broke then don't bloody fix it. We don't wanna be back to where we were seven years ago do we?

[Peter S]

I am sorry but the modified class is more expensive than any of the European classes........a nissan micra for £85,000 just shows that.

If you take a look now the stock class is proping up two weaker classes. Seven years ago we had Squibb, Doran, Gollop all in Europe in more competitive cars now and had 24 european spec cars which were eligible to compete in Europe. Add the stock hatch category and minis to that and we are at the level we are now with a lot more quality.

European regs have to be adopted now. Unless they do Britain will miss the boat yet again. People are trying to get a european round back here and GB needs to co operate to do it.

And buying clios 306's etc will be less than half the price of a certain modified car. Take a look on the for sale section of various websites. As i said before oplands 4 round european spec car was sold to harold sachweh for 80,000 euros which is about £25,000 cheaper than evans micra!

[BertMk2]

Evans Micra is in a league of its own as far as cost is concerned though. Generally the modifieds are nowhere near that expensive, for that sort of money anything less than winning the title would have had to have been seen as failure. Look at the cars that beat Evans at Lydden - Rogers Corsa and Bellerbys Nova, how much did they cost?

It was good to see a slightly larger modified field at Lydden (even if they didn't all survive the day), that was some of the best racing I've seen in a while.

[Peter S]

Yes but Rogers, Bellerby etc have been around for a long long time. If you take Dressers lotus for instance - i bet that wasnt cheap to build. I also dont see the point in spending money on cars that cant be raced else where in europe. Modifieds seems to be more of a test of car building expertise rather than drivers. Surely a driver should be able to go and buy a car from europe if he wants to be competitive in his class??? that is why young drivers are discoruaged as they have to spend a year buildling a car first.

[Hog]

I heard that Dressers chassis cost #2500 from a breakers, but he sold all the bits he didn't want for #2000.

If it's true then it's a bargain. Good job to 'cos he's going to need a fresh one now.

[BertMk2]

How much chassis damage was there? The bodywork was totally cattle trucked but that's only fibreglass so that's nothing major (relatively speaking). It was a real shame though because the car looked really impressive and was going well. Did you get a good view of the accident Hog? What did the clerk of the course make of it?

[chunder]

I think Peter you miss my point.
The thing is with the Modified class now in the UK, the cars can be got hold of. Most of them are basically rally spec with all the parts suppliers and bits easily available.
The spec for Div 2 is very similar to the production cars in BTCC, and I can tell you to build one of those properly will cost just as much as Evans Micra.
Don't believe me? Well I did a bit of research a few years ago into this and when the BTC production class first came out the cars were costing a hundred grand to build!!
Ok the Div2 cars are probly not the same spec, but I really don't think it will work over here. Would be exactly trhe same as GpN or 1400.
Guys over here wanna drive a highly tuned, noisy, lightweight car. Not a Citroen Xsara VTR or a Peugeot 306.
Leave it alone! If anything the Supermodifieds are the way to go if you could find a base car to base the class around. Can't understand why we don't just start a new rwd only class and see what happens. You only have to look at Dresser, he knows the only way you can win in modified with rwd is mid engined, as Bourner did.
And surely he used the old motor out of the Metro in that?

[Peter S]

I know what you mean chunder.....but:

Basically i think it comes down to making rallycross a more attractive sport to race. Yes there will always be a class for modifieds in each national champs.....never really disagreed with that as the mods should run alongside the 3 main classes which is what every other national championship does in europe. There have been so many promised new modified racers for 2003 with grids of 30+ - which if they had happened then fine. But this year we have only had new cars from Evans, Dresser and Collard, with grids on average of 15 cars. Of them 15 cars then 9 of them have been around for the best part of 10 years. Take a look at 1994 when we had a round of the European championship at Croft. He are the stats: (take a look at how many group n cars we had competiting during that season:

Division 1 (Group N)(1994 season alone)
Richard Hutton, Tony Bardy, Rob Coates, Michael Shield, Lisa Gardner, Nick Jones, Martyn Tinker, John Moloney, Tony Bell, Martin Atkinson, Adrian Creegan and Bill Skermer.

Division 2

Will Gollop, Barry Squibb, John Cross, Steve Palmer, Peter Dalkin, Terry Maynard, Paul Gosling, Ivan Moakes and Neil Mutimear (four of those were in modified 2 wheel drive machinery, but they were still permitted to race in the ERC category in Holland)

1400cc

Ian Brookes, Mike Dresser, Sohrab Padidar Nazar, Kevin Sherry, Simon Bailes, Darren Wilcox etc

and that is on first sight from two events. That is 28 or 29 european spec cars total. what do we have now? If we are lucky we have 28 cars combined from modified and supercar.......so wouldnt it be better to have 29 european spec cars than 28 not european spec cars? Add the modified class to those 28 cars and you have 43 machines something that is starting look like a decent entry of watchable racing. Stockhatch is just disguising the major technical flaws in the championship due to the high level of entry. Add the stock hatch level to the 1996 entry level when european regs were fully adhered to (the final official race champs in 1996) and u would have a lot more cars than now. That is what frustrates me. Group N did work as we had a european champion - and bardy, jones, watts all competed regularly in europe. Even Rob Gibson gave it a try in the sister car to richard hutton and won a round of the british series in it during 1994 (driving the escort cosworth) The Group N thing has been dressed up a lot by the British Media in protection of there own championship - that is were all the problems lie. Rallycross GB has to become more attractive to younger drivers. Junior rallycross shouldnt be branded as a training ground for rallying.....European rallycross champion is what they should be trained for. I understand what you say about modified and the costs etc....but if the costs are so low why do more drivers not race in it? Cos it is not attractice to the right people.

Just answer me one question - where is the next Gollop, Rennison, Palmer, Hutton, Welch in British Rallycross at the moment going to come from? I cant see anywhere at the minute with the current regulations - rallycross has to be come more attractive. It has been scared for to long with the image of rich old men out for a sunday afternoon drive in there flashed up group b machine. John Moloney was a classic example as he owned 7 (Yes 7!!!!) Metro 6R4;s at one time.

You can actually buy a the Front running division 2 spec car for 20,000 Euros. which is 13,000 pounds and 72k cheaper than evans micra. The most expensive divison 2 car i have seen is oliver annes French championship car which won the european championship round in frane and that is 32,000 euros - which is roughly £21k - a big difference. IF British rallycross is to get back to where he belongs then i am afraid there is no option but full European regs. While it doesnt do this then it will live in the shadow of its former self.

and another question.....how many people have time to build there own car? Many find it easier, especially on the continent to buy a competitive car.

Rallycross needs direction.....the trouble is the people who run it are stuck in there same old ways and it is due to this that the rest of europe still sees GB as a laughing stock.

[chunder]

Ok I take you points on board, but you also have to ask if we have the infrastructure over here to have a huge rallycross championship.
And I don't think so. Young kids now who want to do off road are brought up on McRae and Burns, so they want to rally. THe BTRDA 1400 championship is a classic example, over subscribed full of young kids. Great idea. Ok they are getting beat by good old Ian Evans but the point is that the kids wanna rally.
Back in the 'good ole days' rallying was more expensive than rallycross, the classes didn't aid you like the new 1400 class does. Most of those guys you mention did a feeder formula like Nova's or Minicross so they got a feel for rallycross straight away. And the cars were slightly more exciting to drive and there was tv and bigger crowds, and the economy meant there was more sponsorship etc.
You have to say that rallycross is doing OK compared to other forms of racing, circuit racing os going down the pan and is only being help up by the press who refuse to believe that any other racing deserves more coverage.
I firmly believe that bringing in the total European rules would be a good idea but alongside what is already there.
I think Div 2 is good, you need somewhere for the stock hatchers who wanna spend more to go. But what you will get is say loads of Astra's and Peugeot's, then someone will get a Civic Type R and clean up, just like Evans in Modified, you can't get away from it.
Trouble your budget goes from 5 grand to fifteen and that ain't gonna happen. Modified, Div2 whatever, the costs are too mkuch which is why stock hatch is so good.
Maybe a 2 litre stock hatch category with age limits on the cars to try and encourage newer shapes is an idea.
I also disagree with the same old ways thing. I think they have done a very good job. Just rememeber where we were a few years ago. Now we have better tracks, tv coverage, a stable amount of cars and two rapidly expanding categories that are gonna drip feed into the bigger classes. Believe me I have been involved in countless championships over the years and the BRDA are one of the better ones. You wanna try karting or stock car racing mate, then you will see what stuck in the old days is all about. And don't even mentoin autograss!!
You though Evans was spending a load. How about twenty grand on a car that goes round and round a field all day for no prize money or anything.

[Peter S]

Hey dude i have been racing karts (British champs) for the last 7 years and i can tell you something the tv coverage we got in the Kartmasters and in the Super one was ten times better than what men and motors are producing for Rallycross. Karting in Super one is a thousand times more professional than rallycross is - you go to a race meating and the awnings, transporters would not look out of place at a Formula one meating. In contrast rallycross is lagging way behind that is why it is not attractive for younger drivers to come and race at the top level. Karting is very very expensive and there is a lot of money involved in super 1 but people wont come across and race in rallycross unless it is attractice to them.

The championship doesnt need to be huge. Take a look at France and Sweden. There are two succesfull series. Motorsport in GB is struggling - only really got BTCC - rallying is poor in this country so there is a great opportunity for rallycross. But they are on the verge of missing the boat.

The tv coverage was better last year when it was on Sky Sports. The event organization is also no where as near as good as it should be as it is driving people away rather than encouraging them. Look at the farce at Blyton. Minicross and Juniors have there finals cancelled. They pay £120 to have 9 laps of racing.....that is hardly value for money. and then they have to sit around from 9am till 7pm to find out there finals is cancelled.

If things dont change then a number of drivers are going to be driven away. As stated in another thread - Pat Doran said to me at Blyton that unless the BRDA alter the way in which they do things then there will probably be 5 of us racing in Europe in 2004.

The BRDA has been tarted up by the large number of stock hatch cars which arent what the spectators want to see. Well it should be called a Peugeot 205 GTI challenege to be honest. As for the tracks then the FIA would have heart failure at circuits like Blyton due to the safety concerns. Take the first chicane and the spectator area at Blyton for instance......that is an accident waiting to happen.

And in division 2 in Europe there is also two "works dealers Honda Civic Type R's" and they are being beat all the time by the Peugeots, Clios and Astras.

4 class championship

Division 1
Division 1a
Division 2
Modified

- Stock Hatch and Minicross and Juniors will probably be moved more or less to BTRDA series next year.

then that would cover all areas.

and do u think it is a good idea to have 2 irish double headers in 2004?

Did u know the real reason why the FIA president was over at Lydden in April - to investigate the safety of the stock hatch cars.

A quote from a motorsport magazine the subsequent week

“that a recent inspection by FIA officials claimed that Stockhatch Cars are Un-Safe, new regs are going to come out for stock hatch more structural features have to be added to the cars, and the class will only be allowed run with 6 Cars at a time regardless of the entries”

Then u get all this rubbish that British is best...yeah right. The Europeans just laugh when u mention GB.

......i am afraid there are a lot of issues that have been glossed over by the hierarchy in the championship. Also to actually have people running the championship, that are actually racing in the series is another note of caution. Hence the variation on the regs. The new rules for Modified B were created without consulting any drivers which surely should be the opposite in what the drivers want. This is the same way as the Spaceframe regs went. At this rate Gb rallycross will become like "Aussie rules football" - make up the rules as they go along.

and apperently didnt the stock hatch final run after the superfinal at lydden due to some mess up?

[Stevie A]

I totally agree with you Peter because that's what the Scandinavians have with Supernational in place of modified. But if the governing bodies want to implement this structure they must announce it now, to be implemented in 2005. Just like they have done with the restrictor regs, give the drivers a 1 year transition period to build and develop their machines. We will get more drivers interested that way by giving them plenty of notice and not just dropping new regulations on them. Look at how many drivers we are seeing interested in Supercar for 2004 and 2005 championships. As for the modified category, i personally think it should be an open class.....basically for any machines not eligable for the other classes. A bit of a free-for-all like the GP used to be, just race what you bring....just for the enthusiasts and a bit of entertainment!!! Because lets face it as we've seen this year many of the modifieds can hold their own against some supercars so chuck 'em in together!

One thing that i don't understand is the naming of the classes.
Why not Div 1, Div 2, Div 3....etc??? What's with 1a??

Or even better something like:

Supercar (div 1)
Modified (div 1a)
Production (div 2)
Supermodified or Open (Mod)

I like the descriptive way of the British classes and when i'm trying to introduce rallycross to my mates they get confused with the european catagories because the words in the British classes mean something to them where the numbers don't in the ERC.

[Peter S]

Yes....exactly Stevie A!!!!!

The reason why division 1a is called so is because of the FIA offraod commision. They also are in charge of the European Autocross commission. The autocross runs division 1, 3 and 4. If they named division 1a, division 3 then it would be confused with the autocross rules for there division 3. It all sounds complicated but they didnt want a rallycross class name to be associtated with a similar name for buggys in autocross. Thats why the 1400cc cup was called division 2a in Europe. The FIA has always had division 1 and 2 for rallycross and 3,4,5 for autocross.

Hope that explains it.