Sore Loosers?

[Stephenw]

Just doing a cruz around all the various F1 BB's I'm seeing a lot of anger over today's race?

Why are people upset about Montoya's penalty? He took another driver out of the race! I know Montoya fans must be crushed; but there is a constructor championship in F1 as well and you can't punt a car off like that when it's avoidable.

And what is all of this about MS passing under yellow? He passed Panis before the flag! How did he pass under a yellow?

And now I am seeing people complaining about MS' rears being 'slick'? Huh? AFAIK there is no rules about intermediate/full wet tires having to have grooves on them?

Can't people just congratulate a stellar perfomance from a driver anymore? The dude won from p7! Does that not count for anything anymore?

[Jukebox]

It's nothing new in this forum board Stephen...you should have traced back their threads for the past years

One thing for sure they'll have to live with it while Michael is still racing

He's good for another 4 years and 10 WDC title really sounds very nice isn't it.

[avsfan733]

get used to it my friend , MS always cheats. When DC or KR blows up, Michaels fault....Williams fuel rig goes bad? Michaels Fault, its a fact of life, just like the fact that a call phone can make a gas station blow up

[jetsetter]

Kimi better watch out just in case Schumacher decides to take him out at Suzuka. One question for the Schumacher fans, would've you been upset if Schumacher had been given a drive through for anything in such a crucial race?

[Snrub]

JPM shouldn't have done it but I'm not sure he deserved a penalty. On the other hand he screwed up enough that the penalty didn't matter.

Was MS not in the process of passing while going by the flag? (he may have been technically infront)

MS could never be in a situation where he needed to take Kimi out. (unless he was a lap down)

[Zaius]

Why is it ok for one group of people to say Michael drove well, and not ok for another to say he didn't/made mistakes? You have an opinion about when Michael passed Panis, they have another. You have an opinion about Montoya's penalty, they have theirs. You don't have to brand them as sore losers for that, I think.

Personally, I think Michael drove very well and deserved the win. But I'll listen to other opinions on the matter. It's a forum!

[RT]

It's hard to understand their anger at Schumi. My guess is that they need an outlet for their frustration and it's easier to blame whatever than to accept that Juan is an over-rated, over-emotional driver. Fast yes, but WDC?...No way.

Another point is precisely the realization that today's defeat will have far reaching consequences for Juan's career. I mean, he had the most powerful engine, in a track that would seem to suit his CART-level skills and the support of a cheering crowd of Colombians. Still he just couldn't put it together. Juan's race fell to pieces a bit at a time when he needed most to show that he could get on top of a make or break situation and to show that he had "the right stuff".

This is the kind of performance that Frank and Patrick don't take kindly to. If Juan were a currency he would have been devalued sharply today.

On the other hand I think that apart from Michael's superb drive, a very bright spot was that Kimi showed he has tons of the right stuff. Quietly and efficiently he mustered the strength to bring the car back to second. He may not be WC in 2003 but he may be unstoppable next year if the MacLaren is up to par with a (finally at last) powerful Mercedes Benz engine behind him.

Go Schumi, Go Kimi !!

Cheers,

RT

[rodrigomarban]

Being neutral, Schumacher deserved the win, but Montoya didn't deserve the penalty. Even Barrichello commented for Fox Sports Latin America that it was just a racing incident that happened because he didn't give enough room for both drivers.

[z2252314]

Here is the BMW motorsport director, a man of class!!

The Constructors' Championship is not decided yet, and we just hope weather will not be the crucial factor again in Suzuka. Congratulations to Michael and Ferrari, they made the most out of it today."

Perhaps some Montoya fans can learn something here.

[rpolinski]

Maybe Ferrari can learn something aswell.

[Mattracer]

I can remember another race at Indianapolis where a yellow came out at crucial moment before/after a pass was executed, but it wasn't in F1...

[climb]

One thing is sure: JPM likes to overtake and figure out as the best, but when he is overtaken like it happened at the start, he can't accept it, and he thinks any manoeuvre is good to catch up; ha cannot feel authorized to bump his opponents, he must learn that overtaking implies that opponents keep racing!!!!!

[climb]

Furthermore, i find extremely childish his whining about his race being spoiled by that penalty.
Of course he was damaged by it, but:
1) After that he lost 10 secs in a too troubled pit stop.
2) Strategy about tyres proved completely unsuccessful
3) All his setup seemed fitted to dry weather

Considered all these factors, i think that the penalty was hard but he wouldn't have done much better.

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Stephenw

Why are people upset about Montoya's penalty? He took another driver out of the race! I know Montoya fans must be crushed; but there is a constructor championship in F1 as well and you can't punt a car off like that when it's avoidable.

I just wanna moan a bit - here (Serbia) we saw only the momment when Rubens spun, and therefore I can't comment on that.

Originally posted by Stephenw

And what is all of this about MS passing under yellow? He passed Panis before the flag! How did he pass under a yellow?

Not that I read the rules about this, but I think it was clean. I mean, TGF started his move way before the yellowflag, so IMHO it should be OK.

Originally posted by Stephenw

And now I am seeing people complaining about MS' rears being 'slick'? Huh? AFAIK there is no rules about intermediate/full wet tires having to have grooves on them?

I don't complain about that either (I haven't seen them) but just FYI - the rules for wet/intermediate tyres' grooves are as strict as for dry weather tyres.

[DSM]

I can't understand all this discussion about MS overtaking Panis. It's not a matter of opinion or interpretation.
You can't overtake once you have passed a yellow flag, until you then pass a green. MS was fully past Panis before he passed the yellow. That is a fact clearly shown on TV.

[BootsOntheSide]

When drivers see a yellow inf ront, they ease off, knowing that they could be heading for an incident in a dynamc situation. They may think the coast is clear, but for all they know,a spinning car is about to career into their path. For that reason, Panis eased off before reaching the yellow,a dn Michael exploited this fact, taking a major risk which looked like it deserved penalising.

Taking a driver out of the race, or runing another driver's race, with a genuine racing mistake, isn't grounds for a penalty. DC didn't get one at Spa 98. Button didn't get one at Spa 2000. Michael didn't get one in Malaysia. Montoya didn't get one at the Nurburgring. it's claled racing, look it up. Montoya lost a few crucial seconds from teh incident, which was penalty enough. Even Rubens didn't blame Montoya.

Oh,a nd for the last bloody time, the word is LOSER. LOOSER means something else entirely.

[Glen]

If there were genuine reason to slow down before those yellow flags they would have started the yellow zone further up the straight - that's why they have a zone either side of the incident.

[Adam43]

Is this thread any better than the threads concerning all the above mentioned?

This thread is hardly 'congratulating a stellar perfomance from a driver' more whining about others views.

There is truth in what is being said, but it is equally unfair to tarnish all who think that Montoya's penalty was unfair, concerned about the yellow, or whatever as just being "sore losers". Michael has just won the penultimate race and is almost certain to win a deserved championship yet we get threads like this. Sore winners? :confused:

Frankly I am concerned about a way in which people have to use to justify something. They have to say things like "I am a MS fan so when I say somethign positive to Montoya it means something" (or vice versa).

IMHO you have to take anyone's opinion equally whoever they support. There is a lot of posting due to bias, but if we go down the route of only listening to people who support what we do were does that leave us. If you disagree with someone, fine, but disagree because of the content not what because of who they support.

These are general comments that are not not aimed at anyone in particular. And certainly not any 'side'. There is no bias intended in this either, it is just a thread that I thought most reflected what I meant. The examples are just recent examples too.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by DSM
I can't understand all this discussion about MS overtaking Panis. It's not a matter of opinion or interpretation.

I can understand it. I thought he may have overtaken under yellow. It isn't that clear. Which is incidently why I started the thread on it. However with the help of others and since seeing it again I don't see anything wrong with it and the guys in race control did right.

However it is cetainly worth discussing. I learnt something by discussing it.

[Wrex]

After talking with a diehard Montoya fan this morning, I will put the same question to those that think it was'nt fair.

Replace Rubins with Montoya, and Montoya with Michael. What if Michael had made that move up the inside and Montoya was put out of the race (and championship)?

Would you still feel he should be let off?

Would you all be in here crying foul if he was let off?

Would you have accepted it if he was let off or would you be screaming for blood?


Hmmm, who can say hypocrisy?

[f1manoz]

Simply:

JPM blew it. And I am a person who supports him far more than that German fellow with the big chin.

JPM wrecked his own race by making a poor start (though Barrichello also had a poor start – dirty side perhaps?) then clashing with Rubens (whether the subsequent penalty was justified or not is a matter of differing opinion) then he was off the pace, then he had a fuel rig failure, then the weather went against him and he just didn’t get back into the fight.

Meanwhile, TGF just kept his nose clean and won. There was no cheating (except for perhaps the yellow flag – that was later dismissed).

On the day, TGF deserved it more.

[Glen]

On Rubens' poor start - is it just me or did Rubens practically reverse back down the field until he was next to Montoya, despite Montoya's poor start? I'm not one for conspiracy theories, and I genuinely believe that Schumacher deserves the championship, but it looked very much like team orders were being implemented at the very earliest opportunity! I'd like to see a shot of Rubens watching Montoya in his mirrors - it was very skillfully done!

[DSM]

Glen, exactly right. and Boots, no they don't. Not unless they are absolutely not at risk of being passed.
Finally, IF Panis 'eased off' then so must have MS because he didn't pass him with any overly significant ease.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Stephenw
And now I am seeing people complaining about MS' rears being 'slick'? Huh? AFAIK there is no rules about intermediate/full wet tires having to have grooves on them?

Well instead of posting this why not just post the reason why there isn't a problem?

Afterall superficially it might be thought that this could be a loophole to be exploited, but a bit deeper you see that it isn't. Why not post that in that thread?

Maybe it is someone being curious about the situation rather than actually being a sore loser. I'm not saying it is, but surely the best retort is to argue the point not call them a sore loser?

[bastinscully]

I think in a way its michelins fault just as much, been in Formula one since 2001 and still can`t produce a decent inter tyre, Well done Bridgestone I say!!