Overtaking

[Chris Strange]

Even though there was a great battle between Michael and Mika in Suzuka, once again the overtaking took place in the pits. Isn't it ironic for F1 that except a very few occasions this seems to become the rule. Apart from the battle between these two great drivers, in my opinion the race was utterly BORING... Surely something must be wrong....

[racer10]

Yes my dear sir, something is terribly wrong. It amazes me also that the most advanced cars in the world, with the biggest budgets, teams, and everything else are incapable of performing one single pass on the racetrack. It seems to be the ultimate irony to me. I think F1 could take lessons from NASCAR when it comes to equalling the field. Like it or not, NASCAR has more overtaking than any other motorsport in the world. I think the FIA need to slow the cars down in order to increase passing. This does not come by reducing downforce per say, but perhaps engine output instead. give back slick tires, go to steel brake rotors to increase stopping distances, (therefore increasing the braking zone to allow passing) and make the tracks a little less technical. I know these sound stupid. They go against what most Brits get out of F1, come on, a good nap is more stimulating than most f1 races as of late.

[LYM]

Chris Strange,

The return of Michelin’s tyres will help Benetton and William to close the gap. The inevitable increase in speed (and overtaking) can make future races more exciting (to the non Ferrari and McLaren fans).
To what extent? Personally I would like to see very different teams/drivers on the podiums at different races!

[Carla O]

Originally posted by racer10
I think F1 could take lessons from NASCAR when it comes to equalling the field. Like it or not, NASCAR has more overtaking than any other motorsport in the world. I think the FIA need to slow the cars down in order to increase passing

What?????? Equaling the field???

I think this is about each team trying to get better all the time, not all the cars being the same... yes, if we wanted that we'd be watching NASCAR or whatever...

And we do get overtaking... and when it happens it's even better... My destop on my computer has a photo of MS overtaking TGF with poor Zonta sandwiched in the middle.


xxx
Carla

[crash]

Well, I'm not to technical, but I reckon If we want to get more overtaking in our sport, there are few changes needed, most corncerning straightline speed:



1. Back to slicks! Grooved tyres do nothing, they don't improve safety like Mosely says.

2. Less rear wing. The reason for this, is that the turbulence made by the rear wing makes overtaking almost impossible. Perhaps rules which allow for bigger Diffusers and Rear tyres could compensate.

3. Also, better tracks! You cannot expect to have a decent race at a place like Suzuka or Barcelona. They are simply too technical.

4. I think more power! This would increase speed, therefore you get a much longer braking area. 3.5 litres?

5. Get rid of pitlane speed limiters? Perhaps hen we'd have even more overtaking in the pit.

What do you think? Would this make F1 too much like CART?

[KC]

I think part of the problem stems from the fact that McLaren and Ferrari are so close to one another it requires either a serious blunder from the driver, shrewd tactics, or a failure to provide the necessary impetus for a pass to occur.

Think back to the qualifying times for this season. MH and MS were rarey over 1/2 second apart in qualifying. 1/2 a second is not enough performance advantage to make a pass happen on the track unless a backmarker gets involved like happened at Spa.

The drivers are always commenting on how they are driving at 10/10s unless the have a substantial lead and this does not leave room for the driver to push. The only result is ragged driving or a shunt. F1 has been boiled down to the most common denominator. That is why we see such close times, cars that look so similar they cannot be distinguished apart except by their livery, and races without overtaking.

The circuits are also, for the most part, not conducive to overtaking as the cars work so well that a driver does not give away enough time to allow a driver to close and overtake. The aero packages involved also require a driver to run around 1.0 to 1.5 seconds adrift to maintain consistently fast lap times.

The last straw comes from the teams themselves due to risk minimization. Why attempt a potentially reckless and dangerous overtaking manuver when one can make it happen without conflict in the pits? The show has begun to suffer due to the goal of winning. The fastest cars are always running up front and the slower cars will most likely never catch them, much less be able to attempt a pass.

It seems that the days of daring passes, drivers exploring the limits of physics and innate ability have been replaced with infinitely optimized race cars and drivers and teams unwilling to consistently risk all to challenge.

[Nuvolari]

I think CART is going to force F1's hand.

[Jay]

"You cannot expect to have a decent race at a place like Suzuka or Barcelona."

I don't think too many drivers would want Suzuka to go. Many rate it as their favorite circuit (even better than Spa). Besides, Spa doesn't really have much more opportunity.

Well, I believe that Sepang is one of the best road courses in the world for passing, with its wide tarmac and a number of passing areas. However, it also has several long straights, so if a car is down on power, it doesn't have a chance. Hopefully it will be a more interesting race.

[R]

Originally posted by KC
Why attempt a potentially reckless and dangerous overtaking manuver when one can make it happen without conflict in the pits?

Remove the refuelling, and going back to how it was before? Could that be a solution?

crash, I agree with some of what you're saying, but definitely not no.5. We have to have speed limits in the pit lane, or else it would be far too dangerous. (CART has it too.) As for grooved tyres not improving safety, I couldn't agree more. I think the entire reasoning from Mr. Mosley on this is ridiculous. The drivers have less control and less grip with grooved tyres than with slicks, returning to slicks would IMHO improve safety, not reduce it.

[EERO]

R, the thinking on the grooves is that they diminish speed in the corners where most off track incidents occur. If a car hits the wall at a lower velocity, the thought is that the potntial for injury will be decreased. I understand the logic, but I think you are correct in that improved control on the drivers' parts would seem to improve safety more.

So its really a question of which leads to a greater level of safety, less control and less speed, or more control and more speed.

Mosely's desire for lower cornering speeds could be acheived with slicks if aerodynamic downforce were to be decreased. An added benefit would be that cars could run more closely together and make those exciting passes for which we yearn.

[Tris]

Hi all!

The major factor that effects car performance is the tires. if you want to improve overtaking you have to change the tires. All suspension geometry and Aerodynamics are there for is to optimise tyre performance. (Remember in 1995 when Williams went off the boil mid-season? That was because a change in the construction of the front tyre from Goodyear did not suit the Williams car.)

The most important factor in the speed of the cars is the tires. They account for about 70% of the total performance of the car. No matter how much downforce the car has if the tires are not up to the challenge the car would not stay on the track!

The things that are important in tires are as follows.

1.) Contact Patch.
This is the area of the tire that is in contact with the ground. This area has to be of sufficient size in relation to the vertical and lateral loading for the preface of the car. The correct term is traction but the term used in motor sport is grip. The size of the contact patch (bigger the contact patch the more “grip” available) is important when the car is accelerating in a straight line too even though there is no lateral loading. If you think of dragsters they are rear wheel drive and have massive rear tires. this allows for a large contact patch so the engine can have more of the power working more of the time. The wider the tire the larger the contact patch.


2.) Slip angle
When a car is cornering the manner in which the tire resists the central fugal (G Force) force is using a mixture of a flexing and scrubbing action. Under centrifugal loading each contact patch progresses along the tack surface at an angle to the plane of the wheel... this is called the slip angle. The amount of slip angle is determined by the size of the tire, it’s compound, inflation and amount of aerodynamic force exerted on the tire. The slip angle is vital to race car design. It is used is used extensively in the analysis of race car aerodynamics and cornering ability.

3.)Camber Thrust
The cornering power (grip) of a tire can vary significantly with the wheel camber angle relative to the surface of the track as governed by the movement of the chassis. When a car is set up statically is set-up with a small amount of negative camber according to the expected chassis role in cornering so that in cornering the camber angle (the angle made between the bottom of the tire and track) is O degrees. this is the optimum as you get the largest possible tire contact patch. The camber is largely responsible for keeping the contact patch as large as possible. The camber can be controlled by altering the settings of the anti role bars and the spring... i.e. controlling the amount of chassis role.

4.)Construction.
The construction of the tire is responsible for the amount of flex that the tire has. All F1’ tires are now radails.

5.)Compound
The tire are made from a huge number of different chemicals. The polymers used have to have good resistance to abrasion and good properties with regards to absorbing energy (think like a running shoe) I know the they add zinc oxide, certain waxes, oils and oil derivatives. Different tires have different compounds and different constructions to give them different characteristics. The softer tires have more oil in them than the harder tires and this means that there is less “space“ for the chemicals that give the tire resistance to wear.. The grip is produced by a molecular interaction between the tire and the track surface.

6.)Pressure
The pressure of the tire determines the co-efficient of friction of the tire, i.e. how much horizontal load the tire requires to make it slip. The higher the pressure in the tire the harder it is and the less it is able to absorb the bumps on the track and the car bounces and thus it is not in contact with the track. The lower the pressure the more the tire flexes and more heat is produced and thus it is harder to get the tire to work at the optimum temperature.
7.)Tread.
If the car has grooved as opposed to totally slick tires (like current F1 dry tires) the tire “squirms” more. This is the flexing of the tread as opposed to the flex of the tire. This means that the tire generates more heat and is harder to keep at the optimal temperature. Apart from the smaller contact patch accounting for more wear this is why the grooved tires have to be harder than the “old style” slick dry tires. Wet tires can be softer than the dry tires. This is because they have to work in cooler temperatures as they are cooled by the surface water on the track.

8.)Stagger.
Stagger in the term used to described the difference in diameter between the left and right and side of the car that causes imbalance between left and right hand cornering. Tire stagger is used to aid cornering on ovals in Indycar to aid cornering in the direction of the oval. In F1 tire stagger happens as a result of inaccuracies in manufacture (the smaller the tire in relation to the bead that hold it to the rim the more accurate the tire. although some drivers prefer some stagger on the rear tires. Stagger is easy to unbalance a Formula One car as any difference in tire diameter upsets the static cornering weight and transfers the main weight when the power is applied. Actually some handling problems can be cured by swapping the left and right hand side tires. That is why the teams specify which tires are on the right and left hand side.. look at the tire warmers at the pit stop.

The next most important factor in the performance of the modern F1 car is the aerodynamics.

Airflow behaviour over the car depends on the shape of the car and any aerodynamic foils or wings as they are called. The thin layer of air that surrounds any object is called the “Boundary Layer.” The movement of the boundary layer can be either laminar or turbulent. In turbulent flow the boundary layer undergoes a transition; it becomes thicker and is characterised by turbulent air. i.e. the gases in the air are not all travelling in the same direction. In laminar flow the speed distribution in the layer to the maximum which is the speed of the car. In laminar air flow the gases are travelling in the same direction and the airflow is smooth and close to the surface of the car.. hence the term laminar.

The wings of the car produce “down force” this is force that pushes the car into the track and thus give the car more grip. The airflow around the foils (or wings) is laminar at the leading edge of the wing (the front of the wing) It the transition point the boundary airflow makes a transition from laminar to turbulent air. If this happens too far forward on the foil the result is a loss of downforce and a huge increase in drag. Turbulent air is less dense than non-turbulent air i.e. it has less molecules per unit volume. This means that as wing passes through turbulent air there are less molecules to push down on the wing than in still air this means a drop in the levels of downforce. A car creates turbulence behind it as it travels. Thus close behind a car the air is less dense and thus there are less molecules available to a following car to push down of the wings to produce downforce. This is why there is a problem in overtaking now. Most of a cars downforce is produced by the rear wing; the front wing is to give the car balance. (Balance is the handling characteristic of the car i.e in under steer the front wheels lose grip before the rear wheels thus when a car is cornering the front tends to point out of the corner. In over steer a cars rear loses grip and the car pivots from the front into the corner too sharply. In a balanced car the front and rear wheels lose grip at the same time and thus the car slides in a neutral manner neither more or less into the corner.) Designers go to great lengths to ensure that the airflow over the car is kept as laminar as possible so that it is not turbulent when it reaches the rear wing. Also the more wings that a car has is produces more drag so designers are always looking to produce as much downforce as possible with the least drag.

Down force is also created by the air flow under the car. If you hold two pieces of paper vertically close together you will notice that if you blow between them they come together. This is because the faster air moves the less dense it . The air flow between the two sheets of paper is fast so the air is less dense. Thus there are less particles per unit area to push on the paper than on the outside of the two sheets where the air is still. Thus the air on the outside of the two sheets pushes more on the paper than the moving air can push out and the sheets of paper stick together. It is this principle that is used to good effect to produce down force form the under side of the car. The diffuser at the rear of the car ensures that the distance that the air travelling under the car has farther to do than the air on the top of the car. This means that it has to be faster and thus is less dense... Thus there is more molecules in the air on the top of the car than the bottom and thus the car is pushed toward the track. The chassis has to be very stiff to stabilise the cars aerodynamic behaviour... if the car flexes it is effectively changing shape and thus the aerodynamics change.


I had better stop now i am getting cramp in my fingers LOL!

Tris

[Tris]

It is no secret that every one hates the grooved dry weather tyres (Thanks Max.) I though this might be of interest.. The origins of the idea.

To give you a little personal perspective I will recount the following story. The idea of a return to treaded dry weather tires was not novel in 1997. In the early 80’s when ground effect was the must have technology in F1 the FOCA FISA war was at it’s peak. The Grandees wanted a Ban on Ground Effect and the FOCA teams wanted a ban on Turbos. FISA wanted to reduce speed and the grandees did not want to give up their turbo charged engines and the FOCA teams did not want to give up their Ground effect. The real sparks began to fly when on the 22nd of February 1980 Balestre announced a ban of skits in Formula One, effective from the 1st of January 1981. In 1980 while the debate over skirted (ground effect) regulations raged the upcoming ban of skirts drew closer the idea of controlling lap speeds via the introduction of treaded tyres was proposed by FOCA. FISA said that they would get the technical commission to undertake a study into the viability of the idea. This was a clever smoke screen on FISA’s part to ensure that the upcoming French Grand Prix was not boycotted by the FOCA teams. When Michelin decided that it could in no way support the mandatory performance reduction via treaded tires FISA took the opportunity to reject the whole FOCA compromise package.

Max Mosley at that time was number two in FOCA to Bernie Ecclestone and so when in 1997 they wanted to spot the escalation of cornering speed Mosley regurgitated the idea of treaded dry weather tires. Personally I remember when I got the copy of Autosport in 1997 with the headline about the possibility of grooved tyres in 1998. I though the whole thing was a strange practical joke. I believed that Goodyear and Bridgestone would tell the FIA to "Sod off!" as Michelin did in 1980. (I bet Goodyear did but Bridgestone, then in their first season of Formula One supported the change so that they would be on an even footing with Goodyear.)

Tris

[bringbackslicks]

1. Bring back slicks - big ones, like in the 70's
2. Remove all chicanes - the engines never get a chance to reach their peak on the current tracks, plus some of the corners would become so frightening that it would seperate the men from the boys.
3. Steel brakes
4. No more refueling. Let the drivers have to worry about tire wear again.

And, on a personal note, bring back those wonderful titanium skid pads, nothing like the fireworks show that those baby's produced when the tanks were full of fuel!

[bringbackslicks]

If Max and Bernie insist on keeping the rules the way they are, then I propose the following suggestion:
All races will be four laps long with two mandatory pit stops. This way we get to watch the start, Max and Bernie can watch the lead change during the pit stops, and I don't waste an hour and a half every other Sunday. What the hell would we be missing, anyway?

[SL]

I think the problem is that the cars are too equal, there is just milliseconds between first and last.

If the engine regs were loosened, letting various types. turbo, big stock blocks, high reving racing engines etc, various weights and so on. This might spread the field a bit, a slow car could tank up with fuel and last the race or a fast car might have 2 or 3 stops.

To me it seems that the cars are so alike the cannot pass as the speeds are almost the same & drivers are all very good and therefore almost equal.

SL