Qualifying vs. racing

[graeme]

More racing for less qualifying time - discuss. (Sometimes a 15-minute qualifying session can be longer than the 10-lap race; that can't be right - racing the fun bit).

[Ian Sowman]

Comes back to the old 'Racing Ahead' thing really - eight minutes of qualifying and two shortish (ten minute say) races).

The trend at the moment seems to be towards longer races - certainly with the BRSCC and 750MC. Doesn't look like BARC plan to follow.

[graeme]

To be honest the statutory three laps of qualifying would do me. Get qualifying over by eleven, and a few races in before the lunchbreak.

[Ian Sowman]

More or less what Racing Ahead did. So why was it dropped?

[johnw]

Graeme
Spot on. We really ought to meet for a chat.
I proposed three laps qually and more race time to the BARC last year. Their valid response was that it screws any newcomers. They would either have to test (expensive) or accept that they might just know which way the circuit bends before they race (unfair). If you have a series of experienced drivers it would work though.

We tried a couple of longer races (45 mins) last year, in an effort to get more track time for our money. Reasonably successful, but probably could have done with a Rockingham type "debris on the track" intervention. We'll give that a try this year.

Problem with two short races is the down time between races eating up the available day.

Just in case you wondered, we do have to pay more for a longer race.

We are also trying double headers where we only get one qualifying session, then use the first race position as our grid for the second race. More race time, which is where you started this thread.

I believe that you guys are going to Croix. Why don't we meet up with Dale and try to plan something different which meets these objectives for that meeting? Maybe we can have a handicap alcomers event there?

Would be interesting to know why the Racing Ahead idea was dropped. The meetings I saw seemed to run pretty well in that format.

[johnw]

Just remembered something that Jim W suggested in another thread.
No qualifying at all. Draw the grid from a hat or use the last race/season results.
All race time, no cost of timekeepers or timing equipment.
Worth a shot?

[graeme]

Blue Book says you've got to do three laps, but otherwise why not. On Boxing Day at Mallory, practice was untimed and the grid drawn by lots. The multiclass grid pretty much sorted itself out within a couple of laps; could be too much of a handicap in a 30-car single class race though.

Grads actually put that there should be two qualifiers for a double header in this year's regs, after some people dropped it in the first race of a double header last year, ended up at the back for race two and complained bitterly. Personally I don't have a problem - you just have to be a little careful in race one... As its turned out, due to lack of time it looks like we've a single quali at three of the four double headers (which saves £35 on the entry fee - woo hoo!).

I think an allcomers was mooted at Croix a couple of years ago (due to Grads only needing two of the three race allocated ) but everyone seems to want to get the ferry home

Right, off to Donners now...

[DAVID PATERSON]

In Australia at a club/state meeting we get 15 minutes of qualifying and 3-5 races of 5-12 laps duration. Works pretty well and most are happy with it.

[HiRich]

There's a degree of horses for courses here.
Some cars need setup work in practice, some don't. If you don't, there's no need to visit the pits, so little justification for a long practice session.
In all series, there will be someone who needs to check their car for the race (basic setup, confirming gear selection, rebuild checking, or a driver new to the circuit). So I wouldn't agree to abandoning practice completely

For those that will benefit, it would be a wise move to cut practice (say from 15 to 10 minutes), and add that time to the race. I guess it needs a bit of consultation from the organising clubs, and bit of fuss-making from the series clubs.

[diz]

Originally posted by DAVID PATERSON
In Australia at a club/state meeting we get 15 minutes of qualifying and 3-5 races of 5-12 laps duration. Works pretty well and most are happy with it.

David, In the UK at least 8 races [classes] per raceday is the norm. How many do you have down under?
Our clubs tend to schedule 10 minutes 'clear up time' between races and like to use it.
If we went for 8 x 3, or 8 x 5 races per day per class, you are looking at 3 hours 50 minutes, or 6 hours 30 minutes 'clear up time' for the racing alone. Include qualifying and the days clear up time would increase to 5 hours, or 7hr40m. Add in the time for 200 or 288 racing laps and that is one hell of a day. The car race clubs over here have yet to master the bike racing / rallycross concept of 'lots of slick, non stop action'.
I've just done a quick count up. We have something like 164 different championships to fit into 225 race meetings in the year. A logistical nightmare.
And don't forget a decent lunch break for our marshalling friends.

[Rod Birley]

BARC (South Eastern centre) usually give a short qualifying session, about ten minutes, then the first race is ten minutes, whilst the second race is fifteen. All for £125.

[carrera]

New boys/girls to a circuit report to the headmaster and are told which way the circuit goes and what to look out for, so it would not be unreasonable to shorten qualifying to the minimum three or perhaps five laps.
Years ago at sprint meetings we novices were allowed "convoy runs", slow speed trips behind the course car to get the feel of the track, surely something sinilar could be done at race meetings to help cut the need for 15 lap/mins of qualifying.

[R59]

"Years ago at sprint meetings we novices were allowed "convoy runs", slow speed trips behind the course car to get the feel of the track, surely something sinilar could be done at race meetings to help cut the need for 15 lap/mins of qualifying. "

The idea is the same as "Ducks & Drakes", a way that we teach the line on experience and race school days. A pace car has a number of pupils behind, who attempt to learn the line by playing "Simon Says" with the instructor. It works when the pupils pay attention.

I've even been party to qualifying behind a pace car in adverse conditions - ie: three laps to meet the blue book regs. Grid positions then by championship positions.

The 10mins clear-up time is another area that can be trimmed. I've been to many a meeting at Brands where the wreckers go out, do their lap of honour, even when there is nothing to pick up. This is a waste of valuable time. It's just a procedure thing, obviously. The wreckers could be stationed at different points around the track, and only those close to an incident dispatched, and then drag the wreckage off the track and onto the perimeter road (where possible) to get the next race under way quicker.

So, to re-cap. Three laps behind a pace car, grids from champ positions, newcomers, regardless of how fast they are, start at the back, and recovery crews only go out if they are needed.

Overall, I think the "fastest" meetings I have ever done were the old Lydden "Truckspeed" jobbies. Grids are racked up in the assembly area, run out on the track proper, three, two, one, GO! Two heats, one final, and it was cheap! Come back Tom Bisset!

Rob.

[kickstart]

Personally I was rather keen on the old Le Mans type dash across the track, have a butchers to see which way it goes then jump in and off you go.

[DAVID PATERSON]

In Australia we also tend to have 8 classes, each with their own separate qualifying/races at a State/club meeting. We normally run these over two days. The wreckers/tow trucks/recovering vehicles only ever take to the track if despatched by the clerk of the course and only to a vehicle/scene/incident to which they are specficaly directed.

If nothing was bent broken or dropped during event 5, then event 6 commences their warmup lap immediately the last car from event 5 enters the pits, this saves us heaps of time.

At major National/International meetings however, each event has a preset starting time and there is a 10-20 minute gap between each event. If there is nothing to clean up, the track just sits there, empty. This is why I like club racing.

[goforit500]

How about a radical rethink about qualifying....Such as

Qualifying split into tin tops & Single Seaters, each getting 1.5 hours with a maximum lap allowance in the 1.5 hours and novices getting double allowance.

This would give us :

1. Less pressure to get a time in
2. Chance to change setups
3. All done and dusted by 11:00 giving a chance for extremes to qualify (Such as if 2cvs and F.Saloons or ff1600 & Boss cars were at the same meeting)
4. An option to choose 3 laps only for a reduced entry fee

I'm sure there would be lots of opposition to the above, but hey, club racing needs a fundamental rethink !!

[Chigley]

it would not be unreasonable to shorten qualifying to the minimum three or perhaps five laps.

Qualifying split into tin tops & Single Seaters, each getting 1.5 hours with a maximum lap allowance in the 1.5 hours and novices getting double allowance.

You guys are heartless The poor old blue flag marshals would have coronaries trying to keep track of that lot, keeping the novices/tortoises safe from the hooligans/hotheads. Sounds like fun though, go for it.

Did I honestly say that drivers could be hooligans or hotheads, shame.

[johnw]

I guess that there would be plenty of yellow flag waving practice for you too, Chiggers.

Nice idea Goforit. Don't quite see how they could discount the fee for the three lap chaps, without increasing it for the others.


Maybe qualifying laps £5 each, Race entries for £100. The difference in total take being made up by those who want/need to setup/test at each venue?
Could all be charged after qualifying by the transponder data, straight off a credit card.

[R59]

Chigley, who you callin' a hooligan, eh? Hothead? dear oh dear oh dear!

Get those white flags out for me!!

John, now that sounds like an idea. Transponders directly linked to your credit card account!

Where did I put Bernie's credit card number....

Rob.