MrV v's Wrex - err, I mean Montoya v Schumacher

[Wrex]

The Great Debate


MrV and I have hours and hours of debate on MSN regarding these 2 fine drivers. We can both admit Michael and Juan are both fine driver, at the top end of the grid today.

We can also admit our favorite driver has weaknesses as well as strengths, and that one may be better than the other at one thing, and visa versa on another.

What we cant agree on (mainly because the bat won't stretch over the pond), and never will, which driver is superior.

So, we turn it over to good folks. MrV will put his case forward, and so shall I. Everyone else (with a sensable opinion) is also welcome to put forward your vote and why.

Fearing the problems that can arise from such a thread, lets make a few things clear.

1. This thread has nothing to do with Jerez, or camera men banging peoples heads.

2. This is not "which driver you like", but which one is the best.

3. You are to comment on the strengths each driver has, not use it as a slanging match against the one you dont like.

4. Remember this thread is read by some diehard fans, so no flame bait.

5. No personal debates. If someone disagrees with you, build a bridge. If you want to take it further, go to PM. Nothing is more annoying than 2 idiots saying the same thing over and over to each other thinking the other will fold.

6. Jacques Villenuve has nothing to do with this thread.


So what do we mean by best? Basically, the best all-round driver that will give a team the best chance to win a championship.

Everyone measures a driver different. To me, its

- putting a good qualifying lap in,
- not crashing,
- working well with the team,
- PR responsibilities,
- Car developement
- knowing how to pass,
- knowing how to be passed,
- finishing races,
- making the most from every opportunity,
- mastering every detail that can make you faster by 0.00001 of a second,
- consitancy, and
- turning a bad result into a good one.

There are probably a few more, I'll come back to that later. So MrV, lets here your case.

As for everyone else, vote away.

[DriverT]

Michael, no question at all in my mind.

[ScottDay]

I agree with DriverT.
Thats why i voted for the man!

[ralf fan]

Michael... over a single lap there is nothing in it but a over a race distance id say MS. for the simple reason that he can be fast when he needs to be.
also he is a great development driver

[dcp2685]

i'm probably the only one who voted for monty. however using your criteria:

Everyone measures a driver different. To me, its

- putting a good qualifying lap in, (Both)
- not crashing, (Both)
- working well with the team, (MS by a smidgen....he's #1 on the team afterall and very different philosophies in the teams)
- PR responsibilities (DC? no...probably MS here too),
- Car developement (Ferrari more so here than MS, afterall in the not so good cars last year, Rubens did beat MS)
- knowing how to pass, (Monty...MS does his passing during his pitstops ;-))
- knowing how to be passed, (Definately Monty...ie the way he moved over for MS at Indy last year when being lapped.)
- finishing races, (Ferrari bulletproof reliability more so than MS)
- making the most from every opportunity, (Both)
- mastering every detail that can make you faster by 0.00001 of a second, (Do stop watches go that low and how would you measure that? MS here though)
- consitancy, and (Both)
- turning a bad result into a good one. (Both...i'm convinced MS just has a gold horse shoe in his car..)


There are probably a few more, I'll come back to that later. So MrV, lets here your case.

What about just having to drive a bad car? I would think Monty would have the edge there.

What about sheer ability in wheel-to-wheel racing? Me thinks monty here as well.

[Mr V]

Well, i have to agree firstly with Wrex, imo, Juan Pablo and Michael are the best 2 drivers currently in F1.

For the record, i'd like to say that, whilst never being a Michael fan i'd hope that i have never hidden my admiration for his abilities and successes on this board.

So, who is better? I have to be honest, i couldn't 100% say.

Michaels success speaks for itself, and his acheivements will never be matched as far as i can tell. Michaels success has to be put down, to a very large degree to the machinery that he has at his disposal, however, this is something that has been created, due to his ability and because the likes of Ross brawn, Rory Byrne, Jean Todt and Paulo Martinelli want to work with him.

If they worked with another driver (Montoya??) would the team acheive the same success? (given that the team would focus around him)....100% imo. The reason i say this is that when given the best machinery in F3000 and CART (which is what Michael currently enjoys with Ferrari) he has got the job done. Since Juan Pablo has been with Williams, they haven't been the best car out there, 2003, for the majority they were, but something that Juan Pablo faces, which Michael doesn't is tyres. (obviously, Michelin out-shone Bridgestone 50% of the time last year) but when Michelin shine, Renault and McLaren also shine, aswell as Williams. When Bridgestone shine, Ferrari shine. The other thing that Juan Pablo faces (or has faced since joining F1) that Michael hasn't faced for a long time, and something that myself and Wrex seem not to agree on is reliability, or in JPM's case, comparitive lack of it. How many times have we seen JPM's car halt, usually in a high points scoring position? Transpose that to Michael........nearly 40 races without a mechanical failure thats incredible!

Of the list in Wrex's original post, i'd say that they are fairly even, with the exception sometimes of PR. When JPM wants to do it, he can really turn it on,(i have personally witnesssed this at Silverstone, and he was a delight) when he doesn't want to do it, he lets himself down. His trouble of course (esp on this board) is that his "dis-likers" will turn something trivial into something major, read those idiots at the Australia press conference for that. He wanted to do his job, they wanted to poke fun, he lost his rag, as most would do imo, but because it's him, it becomes a major issue.

Also, of that list, under the old qualifying system, (again) imo i'd say that JPM is the fastest driver over one lap in F1, he seems to be able to get the car by the scruff of the neck. (Something, Michael is also capable of, of course), the one thing on that list that lets him down, and something i have berated him for publicly on the board is when he gives up, France 03 being an ideal example, Michael would not have given up, JPM let things get to him, argued with the team over the radio when he should have been venting his anger on the track and trying to pass Rafe. Michael wouldn't have done that, the thing is of course, Michaels situation at Ferrari wouldn't have lead to that, the team are centered around him, Williams doesn't center solely around JPM.

So, who is better? As i said, i don't know, and until we see them matched together, we won't ever know, which is a real shame for...myself, Wrex , F1 and fans of F1 in general.

[Speed]

Originally posted by dcp2685
i'm probably the only one who voted for monty. however using your criteria:

Everyone measures a driver different. To me, its

- putting a good qualifying lap in, (Both)
- not crashing, (Both)
- working well with the team, (MS by a smidgen....he's #1 on the team afterall and very different philosophies in the teams)
- PR responsibilities (DC? no...probably MS here too),
- Car developement (Ferrari more so here than MS, afterall in the not so good cars last year, Rubens did beat MS)
- knowing how to pass, (Monty...MS does his passing during his pitstops ;-))
- knowing how to be passed, (Definately Monty...ie the way he moved over for MS at Indy last year when being lapped.)
- finishing races, (Ferrari bulletproof reliability more so than MS)
- making the most from every opportunity, (Both)
- mastering every detail that can make you faster by 0.00001 of a second, (Do stop watches go that low and how would you measure that? MS here though)
- consitancy, and (Both)
- turning a bad result into a good one. (Both...i'm convinced MS just has a gold horse shoe in his car..)


There are probably a few more, I'll come back to that later. So MrV, lets here your case.

What about just having to drive a bad car? I would think Monty would have the edge there.

What about sheer ability in wheel-to-wheel racing? Me thinks monty here as well.

Ditto !

Give a Ferrari to Montoya and you'll see Michael beaten...

[dcp2685]

Originally posted by Speed
Ditto !

Give a Ferrari to Montoya and you'll see Michael beaten...

Perhaps...as much as i'd like to see it. Either way given the incredible talents of these two it would be one hell of a race

[Bononi]

Oh, well... Why you guys have such prefences ??

Frankly, I can't see why one of them is the best...

[Wrex]

It does'nt Bon, just which one of 'these 2' is the best

[Snrub]

From a raw driver perpsective I think it's Montoya. By that I mean take two identicle cars, drop them on a track and make 'em drive, Montoya is faster. I am absolutely convinced of this.

What MS seems to do so well is all the other stuff. I always considered him extrememly lucky, the cards always seem to go his way. I become increasingly convinced that things go his way because he deals with it so well.

Basically what I'm trying to say is MS is the whole package and has an unpresidented amount of experience succeeded and knows how to succeed. JPM is a a driver in the pure sense of the word. Which is more valuable in modern F1? I think probably MS's abilities. On the other hand I think that MS's talents are more condusive due to a F1 environment I do not necessarly care for. For these reasons I'm going to vote JPM.

[Stephenw]

6 WDC's versus 0.

End of discussion.

[Adam43]

Hey Wrex you best close the thread then.

I feel it is Michael. In some departments by some way. However Micheal, despite being the closest too, is far from perfect.

Montoya is a great driver too, with lots to come I am sure and is better than Michael in some departments.

There is lots to go into, but I've only just finsihed reading the good points the others have made.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Stephenw
6 WDC's versus 0.

End of discussion.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't tell the whole story. Is Senna less of a driver than Prost because he scored less WDC's? Or Mansell less of a driver than Lauda for the same reason?

Whilst everyones entitled to their own opinion, and i do respect that, your post doesn't tell the whole story.

[Bononi]

Ok, let's see that way, what about Gilles - the one - and I'm biased to say that, the best of all ????

[Mr V]

Sorry Bon, but Gilles isn't on the poll, thats a different thread altogether

[graves]

Originally posted by Speed
Ditto !

Give a Ferrari to Montoya and you'll see Michael beaten...

Do you really believe this to be true, or is it simply what you would want to happen? I am no way a MS fan, in fact of the two I prefer JPM, but if you put the two together at Ferrari, over a season MS would prevail, no doubt!

[Mr V]

Until it happens, it's all pure conjecture

[BARrouette]

Montoya in a Farrari would kick MS butt!!!

[graves]

Originally posted by BARrouette
Montoya in a Farrari would kick MS butt!!!

What's one of them then?

[Armco Bender]

When JPM wants to do it, he can really turn it on

Remind me not to use MrV as my lawyer,he's just convicted the guy he's defending........
The other guy(The Greastest F1 Driver of All Time)turns it on every time he's behind the wheel.
But JPM,well lets just say he's signed for McLaren next year...

[zetta]

I think it's Schumacher, by a small margin. It's a pity will never see these guys fight it out in identical equipment. It would be a close thing. There is one thing, however, that gives Schumi the edge. His INCREDIBLE good luck. There has never been in F1 a driver as lucky as Schumacher. Everything seems to conspire in his favor always. For instance, in Malaysia, he chose a soft compound, and it was very hot before the race, which made this a bad choise, Well, 5 minutes before the race starts, it rains for 2 miuntes, just enough to cool down the track, and then the sky gets cloudy, and the conditions are suddenly perfect for Schumacher's choice of tyre. After the third pit-stop, Montoya comes out of the pits behind Schumacher's team-mate (just for a fraction of a second). I'm not saying that he would've caught him, but he would have had a chance, which he lost by this.

I'm not saying that Schumacher is not a great driver, because of course he is. He is the complete package, and luck is an important part of this package.

[paulzinho]

Juans my favourite, Michaels the best.... for now.

[TeddyG]

Originally posted by Wrex
The Great Debate

1. This thread has nothing to do with Jerez

6. Jacques Villenuve has nothing to do with this thread.

7."TeddyG don't even think about posting in here"

Seriously though I don't think there is much debate here. Not only does one guy have six (and soon to be seven) WDC's and the other with zero, I have never seen Shumi make nearly as many errors over the course of a season as Monty. I wish he did because then we might actually have a competitive season but no Shumi is just too good.

While I admire Monty's agressiveness and overtaking ability he is still too hot headed and can overdrive causing mistakes. While Shumi is cool and just plain fast at the same time. However in a dogfight for position in very equal cars I might give the edge to Monty, only because I think Shumi has been so far in front all these years that he has probably forgotten how to fight for position. The only problem is that if they were in equal cars I think Shumi would just lap a bit faster than Monty would so while I think Monty could perform a good move on Michael, he'd have to catch him first and after following him for 25 laps or so not making any ground Monty, IMO would be more likely to get frustrated, over drive and probably end up spinning or crashing into Shumi trying to out brake him in some wild move.

I think Monty could have made the championship much closer than it was last year but he made mistakes and it cost him big. Shumi rarely makes mistakes when it really is costly, Jerez aside (Whooooops slipped out!)

Michael's ability in the wet is untouchable. Nuff said about who ends up on top in the rain.

As Wrex said turning a bad race into a good one...Shumi all the way here the guy can go through the whole grid and when you think he's out and done for somehow he manages to get back into the mix...he does have the best car but he's also persistent, when Monty's having a bad race it tends to stay bad.

Also this situation with him leaving Williams not just for more money but because of his infighting with the team is not an advantage for Montoya. Especially in a comparison with Shumi who has built Ferrari around him and can work so well with his team. I have to say this has hurt Monty's image as a team player, and I know all about images being destroyed in this way so it can have an effect on future drives and how the team feels about getting behind you.

Anyways at the very least maybe when Monty gets some titles under his belt we can make this comparison, till then...no way can he be compared with Shumi. Now a certain Canadian fellow who is the last to beat him head to head...that's a comparison!....Sorry Wrex had to

[Gt_R]

I think the best way for me to make an objective judgement is to rate them according to the citerias set by Wrex.

=======
- putting a good qualifying lap in, (MS:9,JPM:8.5 >>Qualifying positions are usually dependent on cars, however in both old/new format, MS showed he can push himself to his max better without overdoing it, though on speed i think they're on par.)

- not crashing, (MS:9,JPM:8 >> JPM had improved quite a bit over his first season, but i include the fact that JPM still finds himself going "off" during races/qualifyings, things which Michael does in practice but hardly in races)

- working well with the team, (MS:10,JPM:7 >> Michael's really a class act in this one...like he said, Ferrari is his HOME. really showed the relationship, and Michael doesn't scold his team people, and all truly enjoys working with him...JPM? He ought to control his temper and try to extract the best from the team-relationship)

- PR responsibilities, (MS:10, JPM:8 >> Michael's always a pro, and perform his PR wonderfully..and as MrV said, JPM can do well ONLY if he wants to do it...and that while his PR ability is no doubt...but where's the responsiblilty???)

- Car developement (MS:10, JPM:8 >> Again, another clear winner for MS. MS developement skills are almost legendary...people who work with him swear by it. JPM on the other hand is the old fashion "turn up and drive the nuts off" type..and not only does MS beat him in "effort to develope", MS beat him in "quality to develope"

- knowing how to pass (MS:9, JPM:9 >> Michael is not one who is afraid to overtake, it's just that often he finds himself in front with NOBODY to overtake. And knowing to pass is rather general.. While JPM's style is "grab every opportunity and do or die", MS's style is more subtle "lock in, ready, and wait for the moment to pounce. In terms of spectular, probably JPM's is more to our tastes, however, Michael's move usually keep his car intact, JPM would often risk a brush or two...and the final reason why JPM isn't 0.5 ahead is because Michael's better at passing backmarkers.)

- knowing how to be passed (MS:8, JPM:8 >> both hates to be passed. No doubt, and both are wonderful at the game of "defensive driving", so knowing how to be passed is a "problem" however, it must be noted that often MS is passed because his car ran into problems ie Nurburgring 03.)

- finishing races, (MS:10, JPM:8.5 >> MS's finishing record tells you the story. And when things go wrong, MS can finish the race with great results. Look at Canada 03, and the race where he finished 2nd without 5th gear.. JPM can finish races too, he has improved greatly and don't throw away races like he used to though..there's still room for improvement)

- making the most from every opportunity (MS:9, JPM:9 >> JPM makes use of every opportunity when overtaking. MS makes use of every opportunity to improve his car/strategy/skills/results.)

- mastering every detail that can make you faster by 0.00001 of a second (MS:10,JPM:7 >> we've heard Head say before, if JPM feels he can drive over a problem, he would instead of finding ways to solve it. MS is really a nut when it comes to detail..be it towards himself, his car, his team...everything that has an impact on his performance, he'd extract it to the maximum..without peers)

- consitancy (MS:9, JPM:7.5 >> MS could have scored 10 but last year showed signs of rare inconsistency. JPM is improving his consistency, but has to learn how not to "give up" just because he isn't happy with things.)

- turning a bad result into a good one (MS:10, JPM:8 >> another win for MS. Undisputed. Critics of MS often claim MS's achievements is due to "best cars", but it is really his time with less competitive cars that make MS a great. Remember 93, 94, 96 He didn't have the best cars yet is able to produce quite a handful of wins. Remember Hungary 98, there's no way Ferrari could beat Mclaren yet they did when MS drove brilliantly to a 3-stopper..the list just goes..And in comparison, JPM didn't had cars as "bad" as MS had before - Eg Williams 02 is no worse than 96 Ferrari - MS produced 3 wins in that. )

And tellingly, NEVER ONCE did Michael lose a championship when he had the best cars. And in fact, he had 2 WDC's while driving cars that are not the sole best car (94, 2000 Mclaren and Ferrari on par).And in years where MS didn't have the best car, he often could push the leaders close (97,98) Last year's Williams was the best of the field over a season..JPM came 3rd.

===


It's not embarrassing for any driver to look lesser in comparison to Michael. I'm being honest here and i didn't care for a second if MS is my favourite or not.

Put both in a GREAT car over one race, it would be 50:50. Both drivers are equally on pace, can be equally fast. But it is beyond "pace" that Michael really shows his class as the best of the pack. That Frank Williams/Patrick Head themselves admit, that people who works in F1 swear by it...there's really little room to debate that Michael isn't the best on the grid, let alone better than JPM.

BUT, before JPM fans whack me... i must say this very very clearly. JPM may not be better than Michael overall, BUT STILL JPM IS ONE BLOODY WONDERFUL RACER in his own rights.