The old debate - why sprint car drivers look towards NASCAR

[rustyfan]

As the title says, it's an old debate, but I found something the other day that is worth taking note of. Some people like to blame the CART/IRL split, but I'd like to say that the process started well before then.

See the following:



The above was said by sprint car legend Rich Vogler back in 1990. How many up-and-coming sprint car drivers do you think looked up to him and thought what he said made sense? Quite a few, I'd say, including a certain Jeff Gordon who I wouldn't be surprised if he was influenced by Vogler's line of thinking.

Note that this is not meant to be a dig at CART/OWRS (even though I find his comments about street circuits somewhat amusing and agree with them) - the issue is more current than ever (probably in a bigger way than Vogler ever could have imagined) and I just felt it might be interesting to see what one of the biggest sprint car drivers of that time thought about the US racing scene back then.

It's a shame he didn't get a chance to be around to see how things turned out

[Russfeld]

Sprint cars and NASCAR havent evolved in technology, so are still much closer to each other in handling and racing style. While they still race on ovals, Indycars, even IRL ones; have more in common with road racing OW cars.

[Hazza]

I belive that in the case of that Gordon chappy (the faster one) was that if he went with Ford to Nascar he wouldn't need a budget, where as to do CART racing he had to. The reason he didn't goto F1 with BAR was that he was told that he'd do 2 years with Team Green and then maybe they'd give him a seat at BAR.

But I agree with that quote, why the hell Indycar didn't just goto Pocono, Michagan, the Mile, Louden, Phoenix, Nazereth, Road America/Atlanta, Elkheart, Laguna, Watkins, Mid Ohio, Sebring, Cleveland and Indy. With one week between each event - wouldn't it be ideal? Then you'd have 50/50 between FFord and Sprintcar graduates you would asume.

And the other thing is Nascar is atleast 4 times bigger than CART/IRL combined at the moment. And it's going strong.

[N I Tram]

I've never been much of a fan of street circutis - they tend to be too tight and confined for open-wheel racers, and often feature a succession of bland-looking right-angle bends. All too often they're an ill-concieved attempt to bring motor racign to the masses without really thinking about the quality of the product. And they certainly lack the thrills and challenge of oval and road courses. Unfortunately ChampCar is continuing to make the same mistake, while the IRL has chosen to snare St Pete's as much as a spoiling tactic as anything.

[Hazza]

I belive that Tony G's direction will be to goto places like Elkheart, I mean, who the dickens is going to complain about going there? The drivers? The Fans?

[2112]

His comments seems were more a matter of his personal view and the direction he wanted to go IMO, maybe due to his feelings about how far he could take his career in CART. At the time it was made, CART was at about at its peak, and shadowing F1. Somehow, a sprint car driver praising ovals and criticising a few
(at the time) street races, seems just as old as the article.

[rustyfan]

If Vogler felt that way back in 1990, you can bet others did too.

[Hazza]

1990 = 4 roadcourses, 6 street circuits, 5 ovals and cleveland.

[Kicking-back]

SprintCar racing is not necessarily the best preparation for Indy or ChampCar in any case.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

SprintCar racing is not necessarily the best preparation for Indy or ChampCar in any case.

Worked out quite nicely for Mario Andretti, A.J. Foyt, Tony Stewart and quite a few others tho'...

[ensign14]

I wonder if Vogler would have had a ride had he been interested in running the full circuit? He was about the last of the sprinters, and had never set the world alight at Indy, although to be fair he was often in one-off entries or a third string.

Remember him racing side by side with Steve Chassey one year for many laps.

Then again, how did Sammy Swindell do in NASCAR at about the same time? Or Steve Kinser?

[BootsOntheSide]

I think this could be similar to the way Michael Schumacher says he doesn't want to do ovals as he feels they're too dangerous. Both probably felt that they weren't neccessarily going to do as well on a different type of racing, and found it easier to denigrate and under-appreciate what they weren't keen to do.

[GP Racer]

What bothers me most is not the reason that Vogler left, but the fact that CART, and now OWRS and the IRL, simply don't care that drivers like Vogler, and the rest of the sprint car world, have left at all!

Their is a host of reasons why guys like Vogler turned to NASCAR, but OWRS/IRL won't do anything to change it, and their paying the price now. If they think they can fill the field with guys from foreign series that nobody here has ever seen or heard of, and make it work, they are dead wrong. Maybe somebody at the IRL should open up a history book once in awhile. They would find that the history of IndyCar racing is full of guys who came from the dirt tracks, and those are the guys that made it so popular and big here that it dwarfed NASCAR. Now sadly and ironically, they are doing the same for NASCAR.

[JohnSSC]

Funny how guys who cut their teeth at dirt tracks, you know, guys like Mario Andretti, AJ Foyt (pre-caricature), Johnny Rutherford, Gordo Johncock and others all showed that they were quite capable of steering around a road course. All of a sudden now this is no longer possible. Talent is talent.

You show me a really quick sprint car driver and, not unlike a top WRC driver, I'll show you someone with exemplary car control.

Sebastian Bourdais or Helio Castronaves (sic) would likely wet themselves if they were strapped into a 650 HP monster with an in and out box and no pretty lights on the steering wheel - for that matter about 99.9% of the combined IRL/OWRS field would (not just picking on these two!).

[evo]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Funny how guys who cut their teeth at dirt tracks, you know, guys like Mario Andretti, AJ Foyt (pre-caricature), Johnny Rutherford, Gordo Johncock and others all showed that they were quite capable of steering around a road course. All of a sudden now this is no longer possible. Talent is talent.

You show me a really quick sprint car driver and, not unlike a top WRC driver, I'll show you someone with exemplary car control.

Sebastian Bourdais or Helio Castronaves (sic) would likely wet themselves if they were strapped into a 650 HP monster with an in and out box and no pretty lights on the steering wheel - for that matter about 99.9% of the combined IRL/OWRS field would (not just picking on these two!).

So sprint car drivers are talented and can drive anything, yet IRL drivers would **** themselves if they got into a sprint car. Seems like a ridiculous statement. Easily as ridiculous as saying the opposite.

[macdaddy]

The names you list, John...
The landscape of the racing world has changed alot since then.

[Russfeld]

Its more about maximising potential. a driver out of F3 is ready to go in an IRL car, in just abotu every category; a sprint car driver would need a bit of adjustment. the complete opposite would be true if you dumped them in a stock car.

[Bob Riebe]

The below results ( grid-finish) are are Arnie Knepper' best ( or equal to his best, all are not listed) during the few years he tried to run a fuller USAC trail, with 1967 being his only truly full year.

It is odd that a person who was a, mostly regional dirt track driver would have during a straight stretch from 66-69, five of his best (top six) finishes on road courses, if driving a sprint car did nothing to teach drivers about road racing.

66-09-10 Indianapolis (DO) Dunlop-Offy 3 3

66-10-09 Fuji (RC) Cecil-Ford 14 3

67-07-01 Mosport (RC) Mongoose-Ford 5 5

67-07-01 Mosport (RC) Mongoose-Ford 5 6

67-07-23 Indianapolis (RC) Mongoose-Ford 5 5

68-09-07 Indianapolis (DO) Ward-Offy 12 6

69-07-27 Indianapolis (RC) Cecil-Ford 21 6

Bob

[JohnSSC]

Ridiculous statements? Hmmm, let me see. Sprint car drivers (and I am including Silver Crown 3/4 midgets, etc) regularly get into other equipment and do quite nicely. I really do think that "Top Rung" drivers would never consider getting into a sprinter because they are a beast - but once you have mastered such a beast, one can go on to mastering other beasts I daresay.

As far as the "different drivers - different times" quote, so what exactly has changed? Do we no longer search for the correct apex? Do we no longer apply the throttle? Do we no longer search for setups that maximize application of mechanical traction while optimizing grip?

Talent is talent. See Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Jimmie Johnson, Tim Richmond and yes, AJ, Mario, JR, etc. There has it seems, been a bit of tendency to look down on what dirt has to offer regarding talent and driver training.

I personally would love to see a match race (= equipment) in a true format not unlike the recent Champions event in Europe where these guys get to drive in a variety of cars. Except of course I would specify a series on road courses, ovals and superspeedways (with a match race at Eldora or Lernerville in sprinters) using the cars and stars of NASCAR, IRL (with or without Bourdais - just kidding) CC and WofO.

PS - Bob Riebe makes an excellent point - and one we would see more of if owners weren't so focused on finding someone with $$$ to fill their seats.

[Kicking-back]

The Sprint Car drivers look towards NASCAR because that's where the money is after the huge decline in popularity of single-seater racing in the USA.

[JohnSSC]

Exactly, K-B! They have nowhere else that is worthwhile to go to and as we have seen in the Race of Champions these past few years, Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson have shown they can do quite nicely in WRC cars and sportscars....

[Tenoch]

NASCAR Earnings
1 -- Kurt Busch 6506 Leader 36 1 3 10 21 $4,200,330

2 -- Jimmie Johnson 6498 -8 36 1 8 20 23 $5,692,620
3 -- Jeff Gordon 6490 -16 36 6 5 16 25 $6,437,660
4 +1 Mark Martin 6399 -107 36 0 1 10 15 $3,948,500
5 -1 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 6368 -138 36 0 6 16 21 $7,201,380
6 -- Tony Stewart 6326 -180 36 0 2 10 19 $6,221,710
7 -- Ryan Newman 6180 -326 36 9 2 11 14 $5,152,670
8 -- Matt Kenseth 6069 -437 36 0 2 8 16 $6,223,890
9 -- Elliott Sadler 6024 -482 36 0 2 8 14 $5,158,360
10 -- Jeremy Mayfield 6000 -506 36 2 1 5 13 $3,892,570
11 -- Jamie McMurray 4597 -1909 36 0 0 9 23 $3,676,310
12 +1 Bobby Labonte 4277 -2229 36 1 0 5 11 $4,570,540
13 -1 Kasey Kahne* 4274 -2232 36 4 0 13 14 $4,759,020
14 +1 Kevin Harvick 4228 -2278 36 0 0 5 14 $4,739,010
15 -1 Dale Jarrett 4214 -2292 36 0 0 6 14 $4,539,330
16 +1 Rusty Wallace 3960 -2546 36 0 1 3 11 $4,447,300
17 +4 Greg Biffle 3902 -2604 36 1 2 4 8 $3,583,340
18 -2 Jeff Burton 3902 -2604 36 0 0 2 6 $3,695,070
19 -1 Joe Nemechek 3878 -2628 36 2 1 3 9 $3,872,410


IRL

1 Buddy Rice $2,689,040
2 Tony Kanaan $1,912,990
3 Dan Wheldon $1,640,790
4 Helio Castroneves $1,314,790
5 Adrian Fernandez $1,159,540
6 Dario Franchitti $1,100,890
7 Bryan Herta $1,057,740
8 Sam Hornish Jr. $1,042,140
9 Vitor Meira $1,019,340
10 Scott Dixon $975,890
11 Alex Barron $931,990
12 Kosuke Matsuura $901,540
13 Darren Manning $872,990
14 Scott Sharp $870,940
15 Tora Takagi $838,790
16 Tomas Scheckter $790,040
17 Ed Carpenter $779,085
18 A.J. Foyt IV $776,435
19 Mark Taylor $746,890
20 Felipe Giaffone $711,140

Champ Car


Prize Money Leaders
$ 843,500 Sebastien Bourdais 1
$ 738,500 Bruno Junqueira 2
$ 577,500 Patrick Carpentier 3
$ 571,000 Paul Tracy 4
$ 488,000 Mario Dominguez 5
$ 469,000 A.J. Allmendinger (R) 6
$ 477,500 Alex Tagliani 7
$ 448,500 Jimmy Vasser 8
$ 459,000 Ryan Hunter Reay 9
$ 429,000 Oriol Servia 10
$ 420,000 Justin Wilson (R) 11
$ 432,500 Michel Jourdain Jr. 12
$ 384,500 Mario Haberfeld 13
$ 401,000 Rodolfo Lavin 14
$ 363,000 Roberto Gonzalez (R) 15
$ 273,500 Nelson Philippe (R) 16
$ 228,000 Gaston Mazzacane (R) 17
$ 172,500 Guy Smith (R) 18
$ 189,000 Alex Sperafico (R) 19
$ 32,500 David Besnard (R) 20
$ 49,000 Memo Gidley 21
$ 67,500 Tarso Marques 22
$ 24,500 Michael Valiante (R) 23
$ 22,500 Jarek Janis (R) 24

There it is plain and simple.

[Bob Riebe]

Something, I have probably written before, but cannot be forgotten, as a reason for the lack of continuance or driver transfer from USAC to IRL or even OWRS, is that from 1965-1975, many vets from their 40s-early fifties retired or quit the Indy car trail. They were replaced by Unsers, Andretti, Johncock etc., but many of these "new stars" did not retire in their early forties and the next gnereation as AutoWeek put it, twenty five years ago was, "missing".
There were ten years later the Mears, Unsers, Andretties etc. but some did not stay on the trail, andwent elsewhere or were simply few in number, so unlike a major change during 1965-1975 where as many came in as left, there were gapping holes that were never plugged and like a rust hole in a car just kept on getting bigger.
(Another point is there used to be the "Triple Crown" plus the Brooklyn Mich. track, which were four races that even those who did not do a full trail, often raced at. With the lack of Ontario and Pocono, more is missed than anyone seems to want to admit or realizes.)

When George tried, at least half-heartedly to fix this, many of the vets he carried over retired shortly after the series started and had no coat tails for anyone to ride in on, plus the bizarre rule and cost changes put the people who had money into the IRL rides and those who wanted to make money going where they could still latch on to the coat-tails of past drivers to gain an instant audience, i.e. NASCAR.
Que sera sera.
Bob

[evo]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Ridiculous statements? Hmmm, let me see. Sprint car drivers (and I am including Silver Crown 3/4 midgets, etc) regularly get into other equipment and do quite nicely. I really do think that "Top Rung" drivers would never consider getting into a sprinter because they are a beast - but once you have mastered such a beast, one can go on to mastering other beasts I daresay.

Yeah, why are they beasts, because they have 650 hp? So guys that drive cars with 650 - 750 hp in thier regular series can't handle cars with 650 hp? I don't get it.

First you say sprint car drivers can drive anything because they are race car drivers and the same principles apply in all types of racing. Ok, I mostly agree with that. Then you say "top rung" drivers who drive 700hp race cars couldn't handle a Sprint car. Do the same principles no longer apply in this case? I'm confused. Please show me the light.

[Growling Ferret]

Its more like 800bhp out of a 410ci Sprintcar, on a clay circuit, no telemetry, dodgy lighting and 23 other cars on the same 3/8s of a mile of track. These blokes are brave and crazy...

Aussie Touring car drivers don't dare take on the world of sprintcars, even just for an exhibition or show, as there is not enough money, they are afraid for their safety and they don't want to look ordinary. I assume these reasons are the same for guys out of other series in the US as well.