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Old 5 Sep 2005, 19:25 (Ref:1399755)   #1
Hugh Jarce
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Hugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Do Toyota deserve to finish ahead of Ferrari?
I noticed that Toyota have made it a goal to leap frog Ferrari in the constructors by the end of the season.

Do you think they deserve to do this on this season's performances.

I say they do!

Despite not winning, they have been more consistent, reliable and shown more techno advance.

Also, in my view out of the four resepctive drivers Trulli in particular has made the most of what he has got.

Well that's my take.
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 19:32 (Ref:1399760)   #2
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If they score more points they do deserve to finish ahead of them.

If they score fewer points they deserve to finish behind them.

It's that simple.

Although I'll speculate that if Ferrari are ahead at the end of the season, it'll be by a smaller margin than the points the Scuderia collected at Indianapolis.

So it will be Michelin to blame!
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 19:38 (Ref:1399766)   #3
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Hugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHugh Jarce should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ah ha - Indy!

But deserve does not necessarily revolve around what actually happens.

I deserve a pay rise but I work for a charity. So I won't get one. The fact that I don't get one, doesn't mean I don't deserve it! If you get the logic.

The outcome in sport ain't always what it should be. Sometimes 'deserve' refers to what ought to be the case.
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 19:41 (Ref:1399771)   #4
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
i'm with K-B ..
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 19:42 (Ref:1399772)   #5
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I think that's tough on Michelin
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 19:51 (Ref:1399779)   #6
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Originally Posted by Hugh Jarce
Ah ha - Indy!

But deserve does not necessarily revolve around what actually happens.

I deserve a pay rise but I work for a charity. So I won't get one. The fact that I don't get one, doesn't mean I don't deserve it! If you get the logic.

The outcome in sport ain't always what it should be. Sometimes 'deserve' refers to what ought to be the case.

Totally different scenario.

Your worth to the organisation is a subjective thing.


We're talking about a points-scoring competition.

The aim is to score more than anyone else.

Therefore, if you do that, you deserve to win.
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 20:41 (Ref:1399811)   #7
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Well, it doesn't always work like that. That is a pretty basic way of looking at it.

All in all Toyota and Ferrari have been pretty equal, but you are more impressed by Toyota for obvious reasons. So for me, Toyota deserve to finish ahead.

Sadly, Ferrari's "win" at Indy will probably secure them.

Amazing that the only 1-2 all year has been giftwrapped.
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 20:43 (Ref:1399814)   #8
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Ferrari gained 18 points over Toyota at Indianapolis due to a tyre advantage, but perhaps they will have lost 18 points over the course of the other 18 races due to the general inferiority of the tyres.
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 21:11 (Ref:1399855)   #9
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Tey have lost one hell of a lot more than 18 points due to the tyres!
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 21:16 (Ref:1399861)   #10
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That is true, so you couldn't exactly point at Indy, as will inevitably happen. Although that is a fairly hefty chunk of points to give away!
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 21:21 (Ref:1399866)   #11
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As a "package", Toyota have shown less flashes of outright speed but more consistency than Ferrari. Ferrari have challenged for the odd win (Imola, Hungary) but have been nowhere in other races. So perhaps Toyota deserves 3rd place more. And get rid of two-digit numbers in their cars.
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 21:23 (Ref:1399870)   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jarce
I noticed that Toyota have made it a goal to leap frog Ferrari in the constructors by the end of the season.
Toyota should perhaps keep their eyes on their own copy if they want to get good marks.
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 21:29 (Ref:1399872)   #13
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I do think thogh that the Ferrari inconsistency can be partly explained by them searching and "stabbing in the dark" for the right solution to this tyre problem - sometimes they have played very safe (Indy).
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 21:31 (Ref:1399874)   #14
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Louis - I'm sure that's exactly what they are doing and on the same basis it seems that Ferrari's eyes have wandered from the plot, but then again we all know it's Bridgestone that needs to get a grip!
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Old 5 Sep 2005, 21:34 (Ref:1399876)   #15
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K-b, I don't think you're exactly right, because if someone hits Trulli's car then Toyota gets fewer points than they "deserved"

My answer to the question, is a very simple YES!!!!!
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 03:00 (Ref:1400000)   #16
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[QUOTE=Hugh Jarce]I noticed that Toyota have made it a goal to leap frog Ferrari in the constructors by the end of the season.
[QUOTE]

and Ralf Schumacher will screw it up...believe you me....and hopefully he'll be chunked out as he deserves to be....
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 04:23 (Ref:1400018)   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jarce
I noticed that Toyota have made it a goal to leap frog Ferrari in the constructors by the end of the season.

Do you think they deserve to do this on this season's performances.

I say they do!

Despite not winning, they have been more consistent, reliable and shown more techno advance.

Also, in my view out of the four resepctive drivers Trulli in particular has made the most of what he has got.

Well that's my take.
Ferrari got that win given to them at the USGP. Yes Toyota do deserve to finish ahead of Ferrari?

Ferrari are cheats!

Toyota should be 10 points ahead of Ferrari (if you exlude the USGP)
3rd Toyota 78 points
4th Ferrari 68 points
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 05:25 (Ref:1400030)   #18
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Lol...how logical and mathematical

In any case, i must admit that i am surprised that given Ferrari's obvious woes and troubles in getting the tyres and cars to work... they are still 3rd in the WDC/WCC at this stage of the season.. ahead of the likes of Toyota/Williams/BAR. Credit to those fellas for hanging in there so long...although i suspect that by the end of the season, Toyota would end up ahead. It's simple..Ferrari's cars are simply not even quick enough to match Toyota/BAR... and with reliability improving in the top runners...Ferrari could easily find themselves out of the points in a couple of races.

Toyota had a capable car...at least good enough to fight for 3-6th position. But for quite some time this season, only one driver scored points and fight at the front ..which must have hurt them in the scorecharts.

But 3rd and 4th? Who really cares?
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 07:38 (Ref:1400074)   #19
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and Ralf Schumacher will screw it up...believe you me....and hopefully he'll be chunked out as he deserves to be....
Oh dear, let's bash a driver ..... again. I don't agree with any of that statement, and although his qualifying hasn't been at Trulli's notably high level, Ralf's racing and race pace has been pretty reasonable for much of the season.

In answer to the thread, I'd say Toyota do deserve to beat Ferrari if, as K-b says, they get more points, which I think they will. I believe you might find that their points total will have been contributed to by both Jarno and Ralf.
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 09:14 (Ref:1400144)   #20
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Ferrari are cheats!
here we go....
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 09:39 (Ref:1400171)   #21
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Originally Posted by Hugh Jarce
I noticed that Toyota have made it a goal to leap frog Ferrari in the constructors by the end of the season.

Do you think they deserve to do this on this season's performances.
If they finish ahead of Ferrari in the constructors then they deserve it, because they will have more points then them. Also remember Ferrari collected 18 points from the USGP, which they didn't deserve, as it wasn't a race.
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 09:52 (Ref:1400185)   #22
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Of course Ferrari deserved 18 points at the US Grand Prix.

They finished first and second.
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 09:54 (Ref:1400191)   #23
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I think Toyota, as a team have generally done a better job and so they will probably make it.
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 11:36 (Ref:1400318)   #24
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Originally Posted by Kicking-back
Of course Ferrari deserved 18 points at the US Grand Prix.

They finished first and second.
Well yes I know they finished first and second, but no one really counts that as an achievement. You really think they deserved the points? Any racing fan would not label that Grand Prix a race.
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Old 6 Sep 2005, 11:37 (Ref:1400319)   #25
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Despite the amount of criticism Ralf has recieved, Rubens is mcuh further behind Mcihael and Ralf is behind Jarno. I suppose the issue is that Ralf's pay is supposedly higher, but his namea dn nationality give him intangible benefits for the team.
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