Is V8SC going down F1 road?

[Wingman]

I have been reading the V8SC threads over the last few days, and I've noticed a lot of negative comments about the way the series is being run at all levels. I'm not a big fan of F1, and the scary thing about most of the complaints is that they are about the very things that make F1 so boring.

-Hitler style administration.
-"Brown paper bags" being thrown around to get certain faces on TV.
-Drivers buying their seats.
-A lack of overtaking opportunities.
-Drivers not allowed to celebrate with "non sanctioned" products.

Some of you guys have your finger closer to the pulse than I do. What do you think? Is the Formula heading in that direction?

Pleeeeeeeeease tell me it isn't!!

[storyline]

Of course it is - the Bernie Model has been well known for many years - although at least Bernie actually had experience in the category (F1) before taking control of it.

Team owner along with a 'mate' (Brabham and Mosley), had many fights with the then FIA President; helped organise F1's driver boycott/strike; helped Mosley become FIA President and then took control of F1 marketing for a period of time that, in any other business, would have been laughed all the way through the courts.

TC is trying the same but doesn't have the depth or background of Bernie.

[kmsport]

as the Soviets used to feel about our society...."too absorbed in the big $!"

[Robert Ryan]

storyline, it should be laid back like the AMRS series, no stress no competitors. What is happening to V8Supercar is a fairly predictable outcome of its growth. It parallels the growth of NASCAR in the US.

[storyline]

Yes - but NASCAR has a huge audience and is extremely successful. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of V8's here. Sure, it is (or I should say was) very successful, but rating ARE falling off for 10, crowds ARE falling off at tracks and the Category Management team are taking it to places THEy want to go, and NOT where the fan base is located.

F1 already had a world wide fan base on which to build - V8's didn't, don't and won't have - they are uniquely Australia and, whilst the cars themselves are sold in NZ and South Africa (and a few smaller countries) they do not have the recognition they have here.

[Robert Ryan]

Yes - but NASCAR has a huge audience and is extremely successful.

Ok we agreed on that...the V8Supercar series has been growing over the years: the development series; the TV coverage with 10, Sponsorship growth. Now

Sure, it is (or I should say was) very successful, but rating ARE falling off for 10, crowds ARE falling off at tracks and the Category Management team are taking it to places THEy want to go, and NOT where the fan base is located.

This is all your opinion, no facts...

[Head Rev]

Originally Posted by storyline

Yes - but NASCAR has a huge audience and is extremely successful. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of V8's here. Sure, it is (or I should say was) very successful, but rating ARE falling off for 10, crowds ARE falling off at tracks and the Category Management team are taking it to places THEy want to go, and NOT where the fan base is located.

So, the packed Grandstands and corporate stands at the Clipsal last week were filled with cardboard cut outs! Funny about that, they all seemed to be walking around. So, the records crowds were just a conspiracy then!!

[ss_collins]

did you know F1 has rules about the size of winners trophies?

[AverageRaceFan]

NASCAR fill their tracks at very meeting (and they have a meeting a week not every month) not just one or two meetings a year.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by AverageRaceFan

NASCAR fill their tracks at very meeting (and they have a meeting a week not every month) not just one or two meetings a year.

They also have a populaton of 250 million. If we want to quote irrelevant figures on an average per capita basis, V8s get more people to attend per event.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Ok we agreed on that...the V8Supercar series has been growing over the years: the development series; the TV coverage with 10, Sponsorship growth. Now

This is all your opinion, no facts...

Get yourself media access to the Official Oztam ratings figures and they will show you facts.

Similarly with attendance figures - compare them to attendance figures over the past 10 years - you will see a rise (as would be expected) and then a steady decline.

And to answer Head Rev - Adelaide is an anomaly in the figures for attendance - it always has been. Overall, however, the figures ARE dropping.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Ok we agreed on that...the V8Supercar series has been growing over the years: the development series; the TV coverage with 10, Sponsorship growth. ...

Incresed TV coverage does not indicate a bigger audience - these days merely that someone is paying for that increase.

Development series - certainly hasn't inamoured itself to the gneral population - crowds for it are no bigger than they were 5 years ago, have roughly the same TV coverage as they did then.

Sponsorship growth - to the extent that the series is STILL without a naming rights sponsor? Surely this tells you something doesn't it?

[Head Rev]

I don't have access to figures (Story Line can you provide these stats from the last 10 yrs), but am very interested in how the V8's are going compared to previous yrs. I judge things (rightly or wrongly) from looking at the growth from these angles.
- More professionalism in the teams, eg. workshops, pit garages, transporters, using TV to promote their sponsors etc.
- the full grid of development series entries at Clipsal
- the fact that non motorsport people I know are taking an interest in the V8's and are now watching it on Sunday arvos'.
- the increase in "non motoring" type sponsors to the sport.
- the fact that there is always ample and full on discussion on these forums ( and others) about the V8's.

etc etc etc.

You mentioned about the sport not having a naming rights sponsor, true, but maybe they are just asking too much, positives and negatives in that I suppose. But then again other major sports are in the same boat.

Appreciate that you have your 'finger' on the pulse' more than I do and I see it perhaps from a different view. Don't mind if you back up what you said with stats, it will put me back in my place I suppose. Is the decline comaparable with other sports also, or are V8's falling behind them as well, or are V8's keeping pace with them. And finally, are stats always accurate, we are always arguing on these forums about inflatted crowd figures!!! But as I said, I look at it from what I can see with my own eyes, rightly or wrongly. Look forward to your responses.

[storyline]

I'll try and dig the stats up today. Compared to other sports - no it isn't the same, if anything opposite. Most other sports on TV have either remained static or incresed.

Crowd figures - the only figures we have to use are AVESCO's/V8SA's - and, like oyu say - we know these are inflated - hell, the Canberra AG proved this to be a fact. Agin, though, some events DO buck the trend and go the opposite way (Adelaide is a good example).

Naming rights - I believe it is a given that they are attempting to ask too much - not sure what the asking figure is now but it could also be a case of 'once bitten, twice shy' or even 'biting the hand that feeds you' (Shanghai springs to mind here).

Certainly, there is no disputing the category has become more professional - you woul dhave to be a fool to say it hasn't - but at what cost? Look at the dissent within motor racing itself about the effect it (the catetgory) has had on other categories within motor sport. Formula Ford used to be a good support category - never really able to head line a meeting, but always had good fields, good racing and good TV. V8's came along and the asking price for TV exposure became too much, to the extent they are now mentioned as 'another category' within the V8 support ranks.

Development class - sure they have a full grid - but as I mentioned, they are still unable to pull a good crowd at their own meetings. Yes they pull a crowd - but the figures (read 'look at actual attendees at track') are still virtually the same as they were 3, 4 and 5 years ago. The only reason you get such a big turn out at the AGP and Adelaide is because they are being showcased at an event that has proven to draw crowds.

Are stats accurate? I can show you stats that show they are.

And aren't

TV Ratings figures will always be questionable - but they ARE the figures everyone (read sponsors, TV stations) go by - get low rating and bye-bye program. So yes, I guess tey have to be taken as accurate.

[Woolley]

Don't forget that this series gets pretty good international coverage too. Adelaide was on in the UK same day - effectively time shifted so it ran 'as live' our time. Growth is not just in the home market. That's probably what's driving the urge to race abroad, and I'm not sure that's such a great idea. It would be good if the category were to spread more widely rather than taking the domestic series around the world.

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by Wingman

-Hitler style administration.
-"Brown paper bags" being thrown around to get certain faces on TV.
-Drivers buying their seats.
-A lack of overtaking opportunities.
-Drivers not allowed to celebrate with "non sanctioned" products.

None of that is new. It's not even a direction, that would imply that they are moving towards it where they pretty much started like this.

And the ratings and growth aren't falling although they have plateaud somewhat.

As for crowd figures, they are representative in a way as no mattert what the crowd, the figure ALWAYS gets inflated!

[Head Rev]

Does anyone have the crowd figures from the AGP? And, for those who were there, was the cowd comparable to previous years or did the Comm. Games have an effect.

Storyline, still waiting on the stats, very interested to see them!

[storyline]

AGP Corp claim a race day crowd of 103,000 - interestingly no figures have been provided for Saturday.

Radio reports indicate the crowd numbers were down and that the current estimate is that the GP LOSt, this year, around $20 million (a figure of a $6 million loss was also being bandied around for the Bike GP's combined). These losses, combined with the cost of teh Commonwealth games to the government - around $800 million - and the projected cost for next years swimming championships in Melb give a forecast loss, over the next 4-5 years, of around $1.5 BILLION to the Victorian tax payers)

Stats - haven't forgotten - been tied up; with other things.

[Head Rev]

They obviously would have budgeted for a decrease in spectators wouldn't they because of the Comm. Games which would have been represented in their budget.

I remember hearing the Clipsal organisers saying they were expecting a decline in numbers because of the games, but as was seen they got it wrong...... don't think they would have been too upset at getting that wrong though!! Interesting to note that you can check out the Clipsal financial budget from their website and other interesting info. Does the Melbourne GP also make public their budget??

[Robert Ryan]

AGP Corp claim a race day crowd of 103,000 - interestingly no figures have been provided for Saturday.

The crowd was noticeably down on the Saturday:

Games 'burnout' hits Grand Prix crowds
202 words
3 April 2006
AAP Bulletins
English
© 2006 Australian Associated Press Pty Ltd. All Rights Reserved
MELBOURNE

Commonwealth Games burnout has been blamed for the smallest crowds at Melbourne's Formula One Australian Grand Prix since 1998.

Commonwealth Games burnout has been blamed for the smallest crowds at Melbourne's Formula One Australian Grand Prix since 1998.

A total of 301,800 people attended the four-day event which ended on Sunday - about 67,000 down from last year.

But Premier Steve Bracks told the Herald Sun it was still a stunning result less than a week after the Games.

"I think you've got to look at it in context," Mr Bracks said.

"Over the last two weeks, with the Commonwealth Games, AFL football and the Formula One Grand Prix, we've seen something like two million tickets sold to major events in this state.

"Nowhere else in Australia could have that sort of success."

Mr Bracks said the numbers should rise again next year.

Australian GP Corporation chairman Ron Walker said smaller crowds were inevitable following the Games.

"We are disappointed but you can't have your cake and eat it too," Mr Walker said.

"I think we did very, very well today to put on this great show"

[Vanilla Dice]

Could you buy a Saturday-only pass or was it a 4 day ticket or nothing?

If you had a 4 day pass and didnt attend Saturday because of the crook weather, the ticket sold number would still be high, just poor physical attendance.

I have worked at the GP in the rain and cold.. (on a Viper no less) not very nice when the plastic tents you work in just let the wing blow straight thru..

[Head Rev]

Thanks for that, answers my question.

I suppose there is only so much money and people have to budget to a certain extent on what they want to go to etc.

Another interesting point is that of the Clipsal, Adelaide in March had lots happening (yes, maybe a different audience) with the Fringe Festival, Adelaide Festival. Adelaide Cup, Womadelaide etc. All these events would have still taken some of the corporate dollar from the Clipsal but it appears to have no effect. What do others think!!!

[Vanilla Dice]

People are richer in Adelaide than in Melbourne??

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by Head Rev

I remember hearing the Clipsal organisers saying they were expecting a decline in numbers because of the games, but as was seen they got it wrong......

The Clipsal 500 is in Adelaide - the commonwealth games are in melourne. The AGP was in melbourne.

Aside from that - at least one person I spoke to (who wasnt a motorsport fan) said they had to decide between the commonwealth games and the AGP. Not many (at least, outside Vic) would go to both.

[Head Rev]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

The Clipsal 500 is in Adelaide - the commonwealth games are in melourne. The AGP was in melbourne.

True, but people do travel interstate to large events like the Comm. games and some corporations are national and had to decide to put money into the Games or Clipsal.

Like what VD said, people in Adelaide have more money, VD wish it was true....