Time to pay the hard working 'volunteers'??

[Nero]

I would suggest that for club level motorsport in Australia there is a challenge for the future WRT running events, not so much with the debatable value of events at current cost structures, but more so with the reliance on volunteers in important roles.
There are only so many people suitably qualified to run events and some of these are getting very tired of the hours/responsibility for little in return. Without these people motorsport will grind to a halt.
So who (not person but level of official etc) at a state/national level gets any remuneration for their efforts?

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Nero

I would suggest that for club level motorsport in Australia there is a challenge for the future WRT running events, not so much with the debatable value of events at current cost structures, but more so with the reliance on volunteers in important roles.
There are only so many people suitably qualified to run events and some of these are getting very tired of the hours/responsibility for little in return. Without these people motorsport will grind to a halt.
So who (not person but level of official etc) at a state/national level gets any remuneration for their efforts?

So in effect, what you are saying is that one official should be paid, but a junior official, who is spending the same time of their lives at the event and could be doing the same job (ie Grade 1/2 flaggie being paid; Grade 4 having to reach into his own pocket), should not? Not much of a change from the current system AFAIC.

Mick

[Nero]

ah no I am not making a suggestion, I am asking a question and am interested in what you think.
Frankly I'm personally happy to pay for flaggies etc even when doing a circuit sprint etc. but I am aware that different people will have different ideas.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Nero

ah no I am not making a suggestion, I am asking a question and am interested in what you think.
Frankly I'm personally happy to pay for flaggies etc even when doing a circuit sprint etc. but I am aware that different people will have different ideas.

Well in that case, I do realise that there may not be the money in this sport to pay ALL officials, but could they atleast attempt to cover the costs of them? Circuits like PI are hard to go to as its in the middle of nowhere, and there is no on site camping. At most winton events, there is a Kitome (support our sponsors ) for officials travelling 100km or more, and free camping, and Calder also has camping, inside the Thunderdome from what I'm told, so at least these circuits are making an attempt to cheapen the cost of attending a meeting to facillitate it's smooth running. After all, without us, they wouldn't have the money in the first place.

Mick

[Uncle Cranker]

Gents:

Sorry to wet blanket this fine concept; but most State OH&S law currently exempts (motorsport) volunteers (not deemed to be employees).

The minute they get paid, then they must be provided with basic amenities (toilets on flag points) minimum rest breaks, and be provided with appropriate PPE. (from every different employer) ( unless they are paid as subcontractors)

I can see a number of promoting bodies experiencing central chest pain at the mere thought of that!

What would happen, at a minimum, would be no more drinks; lunch or end of day Beers & BBQ (as an employee, you can supply your own)


Consider the logistics of 1100 odd (now paid) officials at the AGP.

1100 times 11 hour days; times 4 days equals 48,500 person hours.

Lets say $ 15 per hour is the average rate (oops no more AWA's so it might be closer to a union negotiated $20)

That means a wages bill of between $725 K & $970 K.

Whilst this is a drop in the ocean for the money wasters at the Aust GP corp, your average car club running a State round with say 200 volunteer officials & 200 cars makes for easy maths.

Each competitor would be up for an extra $300 - $400 in entry fees to cover the wages of officials, and that my friends will see an even further demise of grass roots motorsport !


.

[Nero]

good point re OH&S, it would probably have to be a travel reimbursement fund etc. The image of a green flag being waived from the open door of a portaloo is mildly amusing though...could be the second Kev movie?

[NewsStalker]

UC - unfortunately by cjoosing the GP it was, IMHO, a bad one. This is probably one event where there should be no such thing as a 'volunteer'. After all, the office staff (majority of them) ARE on some form of remuneration anyway yet at any other meeting, these same positions (not necessarily the same people) are volunteers and not paid in any way.

Cast your mind back to the old problem at Sandown and their gate staff - these used to be staffed by Lions Club volunteers with a 'donation' being made towards their cause(s). Then the unions became involved and Davo was told 'you can't use non-union staff, you MUST use us. Oh and this is the going rate'. Davo had no choice in the matter it was, after all, Sandown!

But, as far as OH&S is concerned - we all know that this is a farce at most tracks anyway so the circuit owners are not going to try and invite problems on themselves, are they?

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

But, as far as OH&S is concerned - we all know that this is a farce at most tracks anyway so the circuit owners are not going to try and invite problems on themselves, are they?

No

[MPA]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

they must be provided with basic amenities (toilets on flag points) minimum rest breaks, and be provided with appropriate PPE. (from every different employer) ( unless they are paid as subcontractors)

This should be happening now regardless of pay. A dunny close to the point, a small break to eat, a bit of sunscreen and hat..... Not asking too much..

[Adam Ronke]

Do you realise that a volunteer official can not be implicated if there is a major accident because they are a volunteer and doing the job to best of their ability. As soon as an official is paid, they become a professional and there are greater implications in the event of an accident.

[MosquitoByte]

I'd have to say that both Adam and UC make very good point here. As does MPA.

At the end of the day, we have to balance financial needs with our love of the sport. Something not easily done at times.

Personally, I'd not want to be paid, it becomes a job then and frankly, jobs bore me. You will also find that some people involved in motor sport as officials might have difficulties with there 9-5 employer should they get paid to do the job. This due to contract clauses etc. If I hadn't already retired from the sport, my employment contract would certainly force my retirement if we were paid as officials.

The most basic level of argument against paid officials rests with the fact that there simply isn't the money out there to pay us without an adverse effect on the sport itself.

Mos.

[Mr_Cool]

CAMS are bringing in a reward system for volunteers as far as I know, all we really want is cold water and a lunch we can eat without feeling sick the next day.

Bathurst is good coz you get a backpack of goodies and offer free camping if needed.

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Adam Ronke

Do you realise that a volunteer official can not be implicated if there is a major accident because they are a volunteer and doing the job to best of their ability. As soon as an official is paid, they become a professional and there are greater implications in the event of an accident.

So what, they should be implicated for any mistakes made..

[Nero]

interesting comment Adam, I will follow that up so I get a better understanding of the current situation WRT responsibility of a volunteer. I have a feeling that there would also be a secondary issue in that if there were 'employees' performing tasks that are otherwise done by employees, then there would be a responsibility for the event organisers and circuit owners to ensure the skills and capabilities of the individuals as 'employees'?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by MPA

This should be happening now regardless of pay. A dunny close to the point, a small break to eat, a bit of sunscreen and hat..... Not asking too much..

Can I just call Code 20 and reasonably expect a course car to pick me up please?? Outside flag points = Portaloo = OK

The risk of getting covered in stagnant, germ-laden water when a car hits the tyre barrier near a Flag Point is a whole lot better than being covered in Kenny's products when the car hits the Portaloo

[Falcadore]

If the positions became paid positions it might attract more people to become flag marshals, but since it would not be well paid would probably attract the wrong sort of people. People after the job opportunity of sitting down at a racetrack all day, rather than passionate believers in the sport.

And because it then becomes a paid position, it will be VERY hard to sack poor performers. And those poor performing jobsworths will make the job that much harder for the good flag marshals, and add just that touch more risk to themselves and to competitors.


That having been said, I would not begrudge any money or in-kind funding given to volunteer race officials, they do a brilliant job and can not be thanked enough.

[NewsStalker]

With all this talk going on - aren't most of these 'volunteer groups' being recompensed by way of 'donations' to the various group or club they are part of? I was reasonably certain the Flaggies and Fire Marshall groups in VIC and NSW were.

I was also under the impression that Simon's group in Victoria was a paid unit ie they are not there as volunteers.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

With all this talk going on - aren't most of these 'volunteer groups' being recompensed by way of 'donations' to the various group or club they are part of?

Again, a resounding NO!

[Mr_Cool]

Lol i'm a NSW flaggy and we get no donations. I have thought maybe a company could sponsor the flaggies via the club, aka L&H sponsor the ARDC flaggies and supply them with safety equipment with the companies name on it.

[MPA]

Ummmmm, sorry Big Trev but marshalling clubs that attend meetings around here are paid a fee by the Promoter. Take the flaggies for example, the flagging club is paid a set fee to attend meetings. This covers training, recruitment, use of flags and other equipment, club administration etc. No members of the flagging club are paid for their services.

Most Vic Promoters have a core group of officials that organize the meeting, then call upon the services of the Flags, Fire, Scrutineers, Time Keepers, Comms, Medics etc to pull the whole meeting together. Most of these clubs service all Vic circuits and have expenses that must be met.

The alternative would see clubs like the Mini Car Club, MG Car club, Benalla Auto Club or PIARC having to spend huge amounts of time and effort finding their own marshals to fill these roles trackside. And grass roots motor sport clubs around here would struggle if a club such as the MG Car Club had to find an extra 150 marshals to make a place like Sandown work.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but would you like to race with your fate in the hands of once-a-year barely trained MG Flag, MG Fire, MG Recovery and MG Medics all reporting via MG Comms to an MG Race Control?

Now I'm not slagging off at the MG guys, they do a great job, but they can't do it alone and they can't do everything.

It's a small fee and worth every dollar.





Please note, no flagmarshals were paid or hurt during this post, filmed on closed road under strict supervision....

[NewsStalker]

Sorry Trev - but as MPA says - these organisations DO get paid (and have for a number of years).

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by MPA

Ummmmm, sorry Big Trev but marshalling clubs that attend meetings around here are paid a fee by the Promoter. Take the flaggies for example, the flagging club is paid a set fee to attend meetings. This covers training, recruitment, use of flags and other equipment, club administration etc. No members of the flagging club are paid for their services.

Most Vic Promoters have a core group of officials that organize the meeting, then call upon the services of the Flags, Fire, Scrutineers, Time Keepers, Comms, Medics etc to pull the whole meeting together. Most of these clubs service all Vic circuits and have expenses that must be met.

The alternative would see clubs like the Mini Car Club, MG Car club, Benalla Auto Club or PIARC having to spend huge amounts of time and effort finding their own marshals to fill these roles trackside. And grass roots motor sport clubs around here would struggle if a club such as the MG Car Club had to find an extra 150 marshals to make a place like Sandown work.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but would you like to race with your fate in the hands of once-a-year barely trained MG Flag, MG Fire, MG Recovery and MG Medics all reporting via MG Comms to an MG Race Control?

Now I'm not slagging off at the MG guys, they do a great job, but they can't do it alone and they can't do everything.

It's a small fee and worth every dollar.

Please note, no flagmarshals were paid or hurt during this post, filmed on closed road under strict supervision....

Victorian Flagmarshalling Team Inc.
Registered Number A00088703F
ABN 53 038 411 980
Sponsors

* Australian Grand Prix Corporation
* Penrite
* Stuckey Tyres

Overall, Australian Marshals are unorganised. The VMT, being an incorporated association is probably a good model.....but they are spread thin as well and don't have full coverage even in their own state.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but people do race with their fate in the hands of a mix of expertise including once-a-year barely trained Flag, Fire, Recovery and Medics all reporting via Comms to a Race Control regularly!!!

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

With all this talk going on - aren't most of these 'volunteer groups' being recompensed by way of 'donations' to the various group or club they are part of? I was reasonably certain the Flaggies and Fire Marshall groups in VIC and NSW were.

I was also under the impression that Simon's group in Victoria was a paid unit ie they are not there as volunteers.

NS, sadly in this free market economy, some of the aforementioned are paid (on their own ability to negotiate) but the others are not.
But yes the business entity charges the promoter a sizeable fee. (how that is shared differs week to week)

Those that are there as volunteers, are no different to any VFT/VFRS/car club member who gives their all, simply because they love doing it.

And to re-affirm, the two key incorporated bodies (in Vic motorsport) do receive a fee to their coffers (which would barely cover upkeep)

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Sorry Trev - but as MPA says - these organisations DO get paid (and have for a number of years).

Have you ever been outside the Victorian borders NS??

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Victorian Flagmarshalling Team Inc.
Registered Number A00088703F
ABN 53 038 411 980
Sponsors

* Australian Grand Prix Corporation
* Penrite
* Stuckey Tyres

Overall, Australian Marshals are unorganised. The VMT, being an incorporated association is probably a good model.....but they are spread thin as well and don't have full coverage even in their own state.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but people do race with their fate in the hands of a mix of expertise including once-a-year barely trained Flag, Fire, Recovery and Medics all reporting via Comms to a Race Control regularly!!!

As a slightly more than once-a-year official, GTB, I hope your vitriol doesn't spread to the track when you compete.

Else I might have to make an exception & 'write you up'.......


I understand your point, but please don't lump the regulars in with the once or twice a year mob.

Most of us regulars have forgotten more that they remember........