Williams feeling feisty!

mjstallard · 2 Sep 2007, 22:54 (Ref:2002139)

Williams have stopped development of their 2007 car and are focussing on next year - and seem to be pretty bullish about them being able to begin to turn things around at last:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62014

Can they get back to being competitive? I for one miss seeing Williams drivers up there on the podium (ignoring Wurz this year of course), and would gladly welcome them back to the front - but there is a part of me that really feels like they've seen their glory years and it's all rather downhill from here on in

JeremySmith · 2 Sep 2007, 23:35 (Ref:2002165)

Good idea..

Yes I think they can...I miss seeing them at the sharp end, but William's have the tenacity to be at the top again..

rocketracer · 3 Sep 2007, 02:55 (Ref:2002213)

brand new cars often take time to "rubber in". And a totally new concept of car usually takes at least a year to iron out all the kinks, and understand the package enough to get the best out of it, so i dont see why williams would be any different if they are adopting this tact for next year...

however, i would very much like to see them back at the front.

**Bononi** · 3 Sep 2007, 03:58 (Ref:2002229)

I always liked Williams and I hope they get back to the top.

**Aysedasi** · 3 Sep 2007, 07:11 (Ref:2002280)

It would be good to see them back up there where they belong - the more teams challenging for wins (or at least the big points) the better.

FPV GTHO · 3 Sep 2007, 07:13 (Ref:2002282)

This is the same approach both Honda and Red Bull took for this year mind you....

Usually you take an all new approach when your current equipment is pants..IMO it would be a mistake for Williams to abandon the conceptual design of the FW29 as theres alot of things they can probably build on and be fast straight from Melbourne next year. You can bet that McLaren, Ferrari and BMW will be building from what they already have.

BootsOntheSide · 3 Sep 2007, 07:59 (Ref:2002308)

Agreed that Williams probably don't need to go too radical - this year's car has been fairly competitive, and not as unreliable as 2006's. They've matched the factory Toyota team for pace, and it's only been bad luck limiting Nico's points haul. All too often, if a smaller team (which Williams arguably is now) tries something radical, they struggle on reliability or consistency, and by the time they get it right, McLaren or Ferrari have copied the concept and fine-tuned it.

Ralf's Girl · 3 Sep 2007, 08:56 (Ref:2002352)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjstallard

Can they get back to being competitive? I for one miss seeing Williams drivers up there on the podium (ignoring Wurz this year of course), and would gladly welcome them back to the front - but there is a part of me that really feels like they've seen their glory years and it's all rather downhill from here on in

I know what you mean. I'd like to see them competing with the top teams again, and I certainly think that in Rosberg at least they have a driver who will soon be capable of doing that. I think what could hold them back is the fact that 'independent' teams are finding it harder and harder to get anywhere in F1 - it seems that you now need major backing from a manufacturer to succeed, and I don't think that kind of partnership exists between Williams and Toyota (although looking at this year's Toyota, would Williams want to be too closely associated with them?

).

**Bononi** · 3 Sep 2007, 12:14 (Ref:2002537)

I agree, being an independent team in F1 today is hard and even a top team like Williams are struggling. First of all they need to change their engine suppliers, Toyota is far from being competitive.

FPV GTHO · 3 Sep 2007, 12:17 (Ref:2002541)

Theyre limited for choice though. Theyre doubtful to pickup customer BMW units given the history there, the customer Ferrari, Renault and Honda units are all taken, and Prodrive are likely to take the customer Mercedes units. Theyre stuck with Toyota unless they can swallow some pride and sort something out with BMW.

Knowlesy · 3 Sep 2007, 13:16 (Ref:2002587)

Is the Toyota such a bad engine?

I'd like to see Williams back at the front. It is sad and mortifying to see where they are now. There are signs of recovery and it has been far better than 2005.

But realistically, fifth is about the best they can hope to achieve in this era.

FPV GTHO · 3 Sep 2007, 13:28 (Ref:2002597)

Some thought it was a good engine last year, but Toyota had the whole debacle at the end of the year with a fair few retirements leading some to wonder if they even managed to homologate the final evolution of the engine. They needed to submit an engine that had completed 2 full weekends afterall, and they had the double retirement in Brazil.

mjstallard · 3 Sep 2007, 13:30 (Ref:2002600)

Yeah, I seem to remember at the point of homologation that the Toyota lump was pretty highly regarded - it's just the Toyota car itself which is rubbish.

The idea of a Williams-Ferrari made me bring up a little bit of vomit...

Gt_R · 3 Sep 2007, 14:02 (Ref:2002634)

I for one miss seeing Williams at the front. One of the last true independently owned team, and Frank Williams is one hell of a racer. For that alone, i really wish the team can rise up against the challenge and give factory backed teams a scare.

Williams has the fundamental tools available to them. Two windtunnel, a good engine supply, and the essentials to compete. What they lack though is the added financial and human resources and technical depth to allow them make the leap from being a competitive mid-fielder to a leading pack.

In my opinion, Williams is the no-frills and focused racing team driven by Frank and Patrick's unwavering passion to F1. So far, their results are good value for money, and the next couple of years will be vital to the survival of the team.

And i worry to hear such ambitions and talks of massive changes. Few have managed in recent times to successfully perform instantly after radical changes (ask Honda, and their failure) and i don't know if Williams can withstand spending half a season (and alot of money) struggling to make sense of their car if it fails to live up to expectations

FPV GTHO · 3 Sep 2007, 14:05 (Ref:2002640)

Wasnt one reason behind the MP4/18's list of problems to do with its departure in design philosophy from the MP4/17?

Ralf's Girl · 3 Sep 2007, 15:09 (Ref:2002699)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Williams has the fundamental tools available to them. Two windtunnel, a good engine supply, and the essentials to compete. What they lack though is the added financial and human resources and technical depth to allow them make the leap from being a competitive mid-fielder to a leading pack.

How will they get those things, though? The closest they've come recently was their partnership with BMW and that didn't work out - Williams and Head didn't seem to particularly like the influence and input that BMW wanted to have in the running of the team, and it seems to me that that's absolutely essential now for success in F1. Their financial and technical limitations seem like pretty fundamental problems to me, and if they don't want to link closely with an engine partner (e.g. McLaren and Mercedes) or sell out to a major manufacturer, how do they compete at the highest level?

**Bononi** · 3 Sep 2007, 20:43 (Ref:2003016)

Maybe a partnership with a manufacturer that it's not in F1 yet... yeah I know,it's a long shot.

mjstallard · 3 Sep 2007, 22:09 (Ref:2003095)

VW/Audi? You never know...

Dutton · 3 Sep 2007, 22:21 (Ref:2003102)

I guess they must think they have hit on a very significant thing they think the others haven't. That's the impression I get from the link, at least.

Although it saddens me to say it, I don't think we will ever see anything other than the odd (not-pace-based) win out of Williams now. If they were to go into a Mclaren-esque collaboration with a manufacturer, well, there may be something more (but the likelihood of this is hardly high).

BootsOntheSide · 3 Sep 2007, 22:32 (Ref:2003105)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutton

I guess they must think they have hit on a very significant thing they think the others haven't. That's the impression I get from the link, at least.

Either that, or they need more sponsors, or are trying to tempt a particular driver.

Dutton · 3 Sep 2007, 23:04 (Ref:2003125)

Hmmm. Williams don't have a history of that approach, though.

mjstallard · 3 Sep 2007, 23:12 (Ref:2003129)

(putting on Devil's Advocate hat

)
Sadly Williams don't have a recent history of their current results being as they have for the past couple of years

**Bononi** · 3 Sep 2007, 23:59 (Ref:2003155)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutton

Hmmm. Williams don't have a history of that approach, though.

Exactly. The team always came first, though Senna was to be the star of the team, I'm afraid it would never work like in McLaren and Ferrari.

FPV GTHO · 4 Sep 2007, 02:37 (Ref:2003201)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjstallard

VW/Audi? You never know...

They might have to fight off Red Bull first, and theyve got more money to throw around as well.

chillibowl · 4 Sep 2007, 15:47 (Ref:2003642)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

...In my opinion, Williams is the no-frills and focused racing team driven by Frank and Patrick's unwavering passion to F1. So far, their results are good value for money, and the next couple of years will be vital to the survival of the team.
And i worry to hear such ambitions and talks of massive changes...

I’m with you on this. when i hear that Williams want to get more aggressive and then use terms like revolution vs evolution i start having flashbacks of the walrus nosed FW26.

but as you say the next few years will be crucial if the team want to have a future in F1, so maybe its the perfect time to take a chance. after all if it doesn’t work, what do they lose? Only a midfield spot which Sir Frank probably hates more than being at the back of the grid.