Beer & Brats vs Wine & Cheese

[dj4monie]

Besides the on going debate about the BMW M3 and Corvette being allowed so many waivers to make them competitive, there is a sort of culture war going on in the series among its management and fans I believe.

I'm really trying to figure out how come the series teams have so much trouble trying to attract mainstream sponsorships.

Flying Lizard, owned by venture capitalist Seth Neiman. He uses his teams hospitality to entertain sponsors, business partners and other investors.

He has no mainstream sponsorship on his car. He has a bunch of B2B companies as sponsors which I'm sure he's also an investor. Nothing wrong with this, but I see this as "Rich People Talking To Themselves". As a fan what interest do you have in Shoretel? Are you a small to medium size business owner? Maybe you wanna run by Flying Lizard's paddock. But that is not the majority of fans watching the show.

In contrast, Risi is owned by Mr. Risi but he also own Ferrari of Houston, TX.

Being that his primary income is selling cars (albeit High End), he was able this season to get additional sponsorship from Shell Oil Products. Shell is a long time supporter of Ferrari's F1 effort. But I can name two or three mainstream sponsors that Risi has had over the years.

Turn 10 Development makers of the Forza Driving Game series for Xbox and Xbox 360 and Motorola/Boost Mobile. They also have sponsorships from B2B type companies as well.

So you can have BOTH as a sponsor in the series. It just seem so much harder to get mainstream product sponsors for other teams.

Somebody said in another post that, there are more Brats and Beer being consumed at Mid-Ohio than Wine and Cheese. He has a valid point. I think somehow the series has lost sight of its core values and reads its own press releases too much.

How come we don't have sponsorships from Proctor & Gamble, General Mills and others?

I can understand not having say Autozone, Big A or Pep Boys. While I never saw a owner of a Ferrari pull up to the store I worked at, you did occasionally have a customer with an M3 or Porsche 911 come in. Of course this store was in a upper middle class area.

Both Mother's and Mequier's use expensive cars on their products, displays and advert images, how come this doesn't carry over to the ALMS?

Maybe the lack of preparation is the problem and why Atherton laughed at Duncan Dayton.

Some just aren't taking this thing seriously. This is why I can't believe the blind support for certain privateers in the series. We are not talking about Sister's of The Poor here, we're talking about largely very wealth private business owners and individuals. So looking out for their wallets shouldn't be your concern AT ALL. There should be no talking of "well if we allowed this and that, it would drive out competitors".

I doubt that seriously, its only a choice to compete or not, they aren't doing it for a living.

This is why the question the competitive nature of Drayson, Dyson, Intersport and Autocon.

With Dyson its their reliability problems. Pagenaud mentioned that the Mazda engine sounded off-song in the final moments of the race. There should be no assumption or celebration that all its problems were resolved with today's victory.

Bobby Rahal FIRED Honda from his CART Indy Car team. Japanese have much pride and do not like embarrassment. They felt the dismissal by the former Indy 500 Winner in a World Class series like CART was a true reflection on how prepared the brand was entering CART. They re-grouped and by and large dominated CART during its peak.

This is likely the slap in the face, AER needs. If Mazda wants to brand an engine and use production parts, it should be using its own engineering team to help AER develop a reliable power plant. Many European teams were interested in Mazda's engine for LMP2 and Mazda managed to sign a few teams, only to be troubled by a fuel mixture problem that was largely never solved. The European teams dropped them, period. The only respected team running AER engines? The One that's invested in them, hmmmmm.

In any other form of serious competition engine builders with less than 50% finishing rate would be FIRED by mid-season. That doesn't even include their record last season...

Go ahead and cheer lead for Dyson if you want, its not deserved. I would say since Pops retired from the daily running of the team and Weaver retired to his Rose Garden, Dyson has lost its way and become way too tolerant of loosing.

I shouldn't even waste any space on the others. I will give Drayson a bit of a pass because he only found out too late after budgets were finalized that he would no longer be a member of British Parliament. That still doesn't include the lesson learned from Utah, in which you can't ask the faster driver to take up the majority of time in the car and expect to win. You can't count on flat tires and burnt wires by Highcroft to allow you to win.

I wish Pickett no ill will and back injuries are very serious, but WE the fans have been thrown a blessing as we're likely to see younger, faster, professionals in that car for the final 3 races. This DNS might have dashed their hopes of a Championship in a off-year(s) but they will go down fighting and that's what we want.

I can't say the same for the others, they don't want to make the investment, its not that they can't.

I see this as the same culture war off track were people are anti-union for strange reasons and want to protect their wealth business owners or corporations they work for from legislation and regulation. I think the problem is some people really buy into this Capitalist Narrative of "Free Markets". There is no such thing...Especially in America as the current crisis has hopefully taught you.

For almost every team up and down the paddock, this is a strictly optional lifestyle. For RLR, Risi, Extreme Motorsport, RSR, Pratt & Miller, all the LMPC teams and a majority of GTC teams this is their livelihood.

These are the types of teams that should be up and down the paddock. This is why I think the ALMS doesn't quite get the following it deserves.

Too many pretenders to the throne.

Grand Am - one or two steps above Club Racing

ALMS - half a step below Big Time Professional Auto Racing

[MJ_N_09]

What?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

What?

You want the Cliff Notes version?

1. Too many Americans buy into "Free Market" BS
2. ALMS fans have a weird obsession of rooting for the terminally uncompetitive
3. ALMS fans try to project their views of the economics of racing through the eyes of a wealth privateer
4. ALMS the Series or the Teams can't seem to find Mainstream Sponsors common in Indy Car and even NASCAR Nationwide
5. Dyson Should Have Changed Engine Suppliers after its DNF in Utah
6. Far Too Many ALMS teams are "Happy To Be Here" and don't approach racing like the business that it is.
7. Which is why the ALMS is somewhere below a serious Big Time Professional Series its Pro-Am racing trying to be more, its not working

[fieldodreams79]

This thread title brings to mind some of my/our experience(s) at PLM:

We bring our pick up trucks to tent camp in the mud or dusty clay (depending) of turn 4, "drinking beer and eating brats" as well as digesting other related food and beverages, mostly strong and deep fried, becoming generally obnoxious at some point in the mid afternoon, occasionally discussing late model stockcar racing and listening to an assortment of loud music well past "quiet time" in the "family camping" section of Road ATL.

Meanwhile, the folks who have their motor-coaches parked in the turns 6 & 7 area on the blacktop, accompanied by their expensive European sportscars, have wine and cheese spreads that would make Bruce Wayne proud, and as the lot of us wonder by, stained orange from the knees down, reeking of Johnsonville brats and blue ribbon beer, they look over the top of their wine glasses, down upon us, wondering when RoadATL will stop allowing "common people" in to the exclusive back side of the circuit.

In the end, we're all race fans.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

This thread title brings to mind some of my/our experience(s) at PLM:

We bring our pick up trucks to tent camp in the mud or dusty clay (depending) of turn 4, "drinking beer and eating brats" as well as digesting other related food and beverages, mostly strong and deep fried, becoming generally obnoxious at some point in the mid afternoon, occasionally discussing late model stockcar racing and listening to an assortment of loud music well past "quiet time" in the "family camping" section of Road ATL.

Meanwhile, the folks who have their motor-coaches parked in the turns 6 & 7 area on the blacktop, accompanied by their expensive European sportscars, have wine and cheese spreads that would make Bruce Wayne proud, and as the lot of us wonder by, stained orange from the knees down, reeking of Johnsonville brats and blue ribbon beer, they look over the top of their wine glasses, down upon us, wondering when RoadATL will stop allowing "common people" in to the exclusive back side of the circuit.

In the end, we're all race fans.

Actually, I didn't get that feeling, but that was probably because I was with the GTech FSAE guys and maybe there's some respect for them. Of course, I was too distracted by the whole spectacle to really notice if I was being looked down upon. But we were tented up in the esses, bratin' and beerin' with the best of them.




Protip: Don't go for a midnight stroll while drunk. The police don't take kindly to midnight tomfoolery, and the hill cones always need adjustment.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Actually, I didn't get that feeling, but that was probably because I was with the GTech FSAE guys and maybe there's some respect for them. Of course, I was too distracted by the whole spectacle to really notice if I was being looked down upon. But we were tented up in the esses, bratin' and beerin' with the best of them.

PLM is a spectacle, indeed...

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Protip: Don't go for a midnight stroll while drunk. The police don't take kindly to midnight tomfoolery, and the hill cones always need adjustment.

Drunken, midnight tomfoolery at PLM? What's that?

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

You want the Cliff Notes version?

1. Too many Americans buy into "Free Market" BS
2. ALMS fans have a weird obsession of rooting for the terminally uncompetitive
3. ALMS fans try to project their views of the economics of racing through the eyes of a wealth privateer
4. ALMS the Series or the Teams can't seem to find Mainstream Sponsors common in Indy Car and even NASCAR Nationwide
5. Dyson Should Have Changed Engine Suppliers after its DNF in Utah
6. Far Too Many ALMS teams are "Happy To Be Here" and don't approach racing like the business that it is.
7. Which is why the ALMS is somewhere below a serious Big Time Professional Series its Pro-Am racing trying to be more, its not working

You haven't been watching sports car racing for very long, have you?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

You haven't been watching sports car racing for very long, have you?

That's the second time you said that.

Not sure what it has to do with my opinions.

Length of time tolerating sub-par competition for two straight seasons has little to do with previous Sports Car History. Today things are quite a bit different.

[dj4monie]

What I mostly wanted to focus on is the lack of mainstream sponsorships in the series. This is more than likely because the LMP field which gets most of the TV time is the weakest with the weakest teams left in it besides Highcroft and MAYBE Dyson.

And the focus some fans have on detractors like myself and TWK and others with more flowery outlooks.

As Field Of Dreams said, there is a very large faction of the fan base that's working class, camped out on the grass or the dirt. Maybe up in the stands, but go to a race or two every season. How come many mainstream products are not being peddled in the ALMS when you'll find these same fans in the Supermarket and Big Box Stores???

I also keep saying ALMS gets similar TV numbers to other series with mainstream sponsors (and different demographics) so what gives? How come the Risi Ferrari's don't have Big Red Gum on them? Or Orbit Sugar-free gum?

This is a symptom of the types of teams in the ALMS or the fact that the series is not as attractive to sponsors?

[rdt012237]

I know it was rented out by the Mid-Ohio track but,,,
Did any notice the big blue billboard behind the keyhole at yesterdays race? It had one word one it. With the camera placement behind turn on as they covered the straight up to turn two it looked like all of the cars were racing to "WALMART

[broadrun96]

I think the problem lies with the history of sportscar racing, many of us think the classic era of drive to the track, race and then drive home is the anchor of our sport. A lot of teams, like Intersport, are run like that; they have under 5 paid team members and a bunch of friends that come with and help because they LOVE being at the track. Teams like Audi and Pug, and even Highcroft, are new things to sportscar and it will take away for the sport to figure out where professional long-term teams like those in NASCAR and now F1 fit in. Wasn't it just a short time ago the garagistas were the admired little teams in F1 that fought and hung on with a lot less resources and have since been left behind. The little guys like Interport could fight for podiums even 5 years ago but are slowly getting left behind and it's a REALLY bad time to ask for cash when most companies are saving it or spending it to merge or buy into other companies. If there were more companies like Patron where an exec could go have some fun on the track and be able to present the benefits of sponsorship.
With ESPN moving back to NASCAR because of their falling ratings and reduced costs, we've lost a spot to move up like NASCAR had managed in the early/mid 90s. And sorry but this season is done now, football starts in 4 weeks so weekends are pretty much OVER for coverage on any US sports network or nightly news. Having PLM end the season as the biggest event is great but even NASCAR has a hard time selling the end of their season to sports fans. As I'm sure any southeastern college football fan can tell you, there's a LOT of crossover between the wine and cheese crowds at ALMS events and many of the SEC/ACC football games in the fall.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I think the problem lies with the history of sportscar racing, many of us think the classic era of drive to the track, race and then drive home is the anchor of our sport. A lot of teams, like Intersport, are run like that; they have under 5 paid team members and a bunch of friends that come with and help because they LOVE being at the track. Teams like Audi and Pug, and even Highcroft, are new things to sportscar and it will take away for the sport to figure out where professional long-term teams like those in NASCAR and now F1 fit in. Wasn't it just a short time ago the garagistas were the admired little teams in F1 that fought and hung on with a lot less resources and have since been left behind. The little guys like Interport could fight for podiums even 5 years ago but are slowly getting left behind and it's a REALLY bad time to ask for cash when most companies are saving it or spending it to merge or buy into other companies. If there were more companies like Patron where an exec could go have some fun on the track and be able to present the benefits of sponsorship.
With ESPN moving back to NASCAR because of their falling ratings and reduced costs, we've lost a spot to move up like NASCAR had managed in the early/mid 90s. And sorry but this season is done now, football starts in 4 weeks so weekends are pretty much OVER for coverage on any US sports network or nightly news. Having PLM end the season as the biggest event is great but even NASCAR has a hard time selling the end of their season to sports fans. As I'm sure any southeastern college football fan can tell you, there's a LOT of crossover between the wine and cheese crowds at ALMS events and many of the SEC/ACC football games in the fall.

There's also plenty of beer and brat crossover as well.

[gucom]

if I can contribute my 2 cents...

yes, race tracks probably get most of their budget from spectators (i dunno how much the TV stations pay to the organizers for the TV rights, or how much money flows to the organizers from TV ads, but I'll just assume track-side spectators bring in more direct money).

but that's only half of the equation; if you want top-level racing, you'll need manufacturer involvement and like ptclaus said, they'll wanna have a larger audience than even de quarter of a million spectators at Le Mans, before investing the sums of money they do. This is especially true for prototype programs.

Like dj4monie just said, in GT racing, there's a certain potential for self-sustainability of manufacturer involvement without TV audiences, if they sell the racecars themselves with a profit to privateer teams (like Porsche has been doing for ages). Then you'll need either spectators or entry fees to keep the race organization going...

as for the importance of TV and games, my interest in endurance racing was caused by:
-Need for Speed Porsche, and all the awesome Porsche racers, most notably the 911 GT1 and the 935 Moby Dick
-Another Need for Speed game that introduced me to the McLaren F1 and its history at Le Mans
-Seeing an ALMS race on French Eurosport, and later staying up at night to see the LM24 coverage on TV

these things have turned me into an avid endurance racing fan, with now 5 visits to Le Mans, and a strong wish to visit other races when my budget allows... without TV and games, the manufacturers wouldnt have gotten their exposure and the tracks wouldnt have had me as a loyal spectator...

[old man]

Originally Posted by gucom

if I can contribute my 2 cents...

yes, race tracks probably get most of their budget from spectators (i dunno how much the TV stations pay to the organizers for the TV rights, or how much money flows to the organizers from TV ads, but I'll just assume track-side spectators bring in more direct money).

but that's only half of the equation; if you want top-level racing, you'll need manufacturer involvement and like ptclaus said, they'll wanna have a larger audience than even de quarter of a million spectators at Le Mans, before investing the sums of money they do. This is especially true for prototype programs.

Unless the situation is very different from Europe the series and/or the circuit will pay the TV company for air time, not the other way around

Getting an entry at Le Mans, particularly in GT requires good results in a feeder series and so some entries are there for that reason. I doubt any of the teams has more income than expenditure and any shortfall is made up by either the drivers bringing money or the team owner subsidising.

The economics of motor racing outside F1 and Nascar are very strange and the TV takes away paying spectators as much as it brings new. I am a case in point, after around 60 years of almost obsesive (according to the wife) enthusiasm for the sport I have to admit to not going to circuits except for LM24 and a few in the UK, this year 3 or 4 only.

For the manufacturers it is all about image, that is why Porsche, Audi, Peugeot, Ferrari and BMW do it but remember, the Porsche racing division makes an operating profit.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by old man

Unless the situation is very different from Europe the series and/or the circuit will pay the TV company for air time, not the other way around

Getting an entry at Le Mans, particularly in GT requires good results in a feeder series and so some entries are there for that reason. I doubt any of the teams has more income than expenditure and any shortfall is made up by either the drivers bringing money or the team owner subsidising.

The economics of motor racing outside F1 and Nascar are very strange and the TV takes away paying spectators as much as it brings new. I am a case in point, after around 60 years of almost obsesive (according to the wife) enthusiasm for the sport I have to admit to not going to circuits except for LM24 and a few in the UK, this year 3 or 4 only.

For the manufacturers it is all about image, that is why Porsche, Audi, Peugeot, Ferrari and BMW do it but remember, the Porsche racing division makes an operating profit.

Yeah, but it's different in that racetracks aren't dense around these parts, unless your talking about ovals. For example, I live in Chattanooga. I have two world class tracks in an 150-200 mile trip. The next closest is VIR, 400 miles away. Say I live in Swindon in the UK, there are 8 places within a 200 mile trip I can go see British F3 or Britcar. Some being on return occasions.


I know if I lived in Swindon I'd be making the trip a lot more than I do now.

[skeeskirrt]

As long as there are rich men with fast cars, we will always have race tracks.

[ptclaus98]

I'm not sure I'd pay for online TV. I already search online to get it, and it doesn't cost anything.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

I'm not sure I'd pay for online TV. I already search online to get it, and it doesn't cost anything.

Not to mention if you know where to look, you can find a pirated stream of said event to watch and it doesn't cost anything.

[carsten66]

I am very astonished why people not willing to pay a small fee to keep going at something they would really like to see to happen... and furthermore supporting their series...

[HORNDAWG]

Money for nothin' and your chicks for free!!






L.P.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by carsten66

I am very astonished why people not willing to pay a small fee to keep going at something they would really like to see to happen... and furthermore supporting their series...

We do, it's called the cable bill.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by carsten66

I am very astonished why people not willing to pay a small fee to keep going at something they would really like to see to happen...

while you're at it would you like to debate why people download music online illegally?

Music's incredibly screwed up. I don't even need to download the song. If I want to listen to that song Horndawg referenced, I can punch it in to Youtube and listen to it for free without it ever coming onto my hard drive, and it's already been established Youtube doesn't make money and neither does the record company off this. I can also even listen to a dozen trance or techno remixes of the song probably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD6Obi7Cag

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

while you're at it would you like to debate why people download music online illegally?

What is there to debate?



L.P.