2013-2014 N.Z National Motorsport Classes..(Excluding NZV8 & ST please.)

[Old_Bob]

2013... Time to start preparing for the next race season.
This thread is aimed at the 'smaller ego' classes as an alternative to the all important V8 fiasco.

Who is entering in what class?
Where are they going to race?

Is it time to create a series for competitors based around the condensed and highly successful Toyota calender?

Would the F5000s' be prepared to run in such a series?

Is there a way to achieve parity within the current Formula Ford variants to enable this class to be 're-born' as an entry level class where a talented kart-racer can be competitive without a 150k budget?

How many of you would pay to attend a race meeting that included;
Toyotas,
F5000s,
Formula Fords (Toyota/Honda?),
GT86,
Honda Cup, Suzuki or similar.
Perhaps another premier class could be included if they play nice?
How about a regional 'All-comers' selection to enable the much needed by easily dismissed local content...? Yeah Right...

These classes may be of interest to some people?

Has anyone ever thought of gaining NZ wide T.V exposure by offering exclusive coverage of race meetings to Maori T.V at 'no charge'...
Wouldn't that put the cat amongst the pigeons'

[CDM]

Originally Posted by Old_Bob

Is it time to create a series for competitors based around the condensed and highly successful Toyota calender?

I would say a definate no to that!

Remembering that for most TRS teams it is a business they are running. Yes it is successful for them but i dont think it would work for the majority of any other classes.

Take out the top echelon of competitors, how many could afford to do 5 or 6 weekends of Motorsport in a row, as well as travel the length of the country. And I dont mean just financial wise, its the time off work or away from their businesses for travel plus car prep time etc etc, its basically full time for 6 weeks...plus there is the toll on man & machinery.

And aside to all that, there are a great number of Kiwi competitors who enjoy a family summer break & actually prefer to race at other times of the year.

[GT 86]

Originally Posted by Old_Bob

2013... Time to start preparing for the next race season.
This thread is aimed at the 'smaller ego' classes as an alternative to the all important V8 fiasco.

Who is entering in what class?
Where are they going to race?

Is it time to create a series for competitors based around the condensed and highly successful Toyota calender?

Would the F5000s' be prepared to run in such a series?

Is there a way to achieve parity within the current Formula Ford variants to enable this class to be 're-born' as an entry level class where a talented kart-racer can be competitive without a 150k budget?

How many of you would pay to attend a race meeting that included;
Toyotas,
F5000s,
Formula Fords (Toyota/Honda?),
GT86,
Honda Cup, Suzuki or similar.
Perhaps another premier class could be included if they play nice?
How about a regional 'All-comers' selection to enable the much needed by easily dismissed local content...? Yeah Right...

These classes may be of interest to some people?

Has anyone ever thought of gaining NZ wide T.V exposure by offering exclusive coverage of race meetings to Maori T.V at 'no charge'...
Wouldn't that put the cat amongst the pigeons'

I commend you for the post but its all too similar to what we have. I agree with CDM, not only are budgets not there any more, also adding to that issue is the time needed to follow this potential series over the summer period plus the holiday period loadings we all have to pay. With the exception of TRS which isnt made for NZ anymore, its made for foreigners and NZ teams to run them, most people want to spend time with the family, especially after this summer and that goes for attendees as well.

Im sure this may appeal to a number of us but we have to be looked after as well, something that hasnt been done very well in the past. The MSNZ run series can only offer free entries for so long before the blood starts running out the doors again.

Are you saying at the foot of your post that Maori TV would pay to cover the event as no one pays for their coverage to air, its the cost to produce that coverage is where the pain is.

[Icarus_nz]

The single biggest costs in doing FFord are
1. Paying to get your hands on a competitive engine
2. The additional mileage/costs involved in going testing.

Otherwise I think the class itself has done what it can to contain costs.
The trouble is the PERCEPTION that it takes $150k plus to run up front

In large part the karting fraternity are primed to belive such things because theirs is a sport where you buy your success...

[Rusty Nail]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

The single biggest costs in doing FFord are
1. Paying to get your hands on a competitive engine
2. The additional mileage/costs involved in going testing.

Otherwise I think the class itself has done what it can to contain costs.
The trouble is the PERCEPTION that it takes $150k plus to run up front

In large part the karting fraternity are primed to belive such things because theirs is a sport where you buy your success...

Icarus is right.

There is an extensive discussion on FF here :- http://www.theroaringseason.com/show...r-Formula-Ford which is well worth a read for anyone who is interested in the subject.

It pretty well establishes also that the cost to be competitive at the front need be nowhere near the mentioned $150k. Barry Leitch reckons Brendon was run on a shoestring, as were most of the other front runners.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

Icarus is right.

There is an extensive discussion on FF here :- http://www.theroaringseason.com/show...r-Formula-Ford which is well worth a read for anyone who is interested in the subject.

It pretty well establishes also that the cost to be competitive at the front need be nowhere near the mentioned $150k. Barry Leitch reckons Brendon was run on a shoestring, as were most of the other front runners.

One of the first things I saw in that thread was that the Honda Fit engine was not an option because it would rule out support from Ford.

Well, when last did Ford significantly back Formula Ford in NZ? The kent engine is ancient and hasn't been in their cars for ages so it means nothing to Ford.

I think on the formula ford level, it should be enough that the car can be run out of a garage by one or 2 people and after the initial investment, not cost a fortune to run every weekend.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

One of the first things I saw in that thread was that the Honda Fit engine was not an option because it would rule out support from Ford.

Well, when last did Ford significantly back Formula Ford in NZ? The kent engine is ancient and hasn't been in their cars for ages so it means nothing to Ford.

I think on the formula ford level, it should be enough that the car can be run out of a garage by one or 2 people and after the initial investment, not cost a fortune to run every weekend.

That is true, but if you read further on from there Crunch (who is VP of MSNZ) has said that the debate on there has led him to reassess his opinion, not just on the Honda engine but also the FF200 Ecoboost replacement which he previously favoured. It is great that we can engage with (some of) the higher levels of MSNZ and have them respond positively to input. A lot of respect to Crunch for that. The meat in that thread makes quite an interesting read.

As is stated, there are a lot more challenges facing NZFF than just which engine for the future. There needs to be a feeder North Island Series similar to the South Island Formula Ford Championship. The strength of FF in the South Island would appear to be the reason that the top four NZFF Championship place getters were from the south.

Most of those guys have clearly demonstrated that, contrary to popular misconception, FF can be run competitively and successfully on a relatively restricted budget.

What is stopping the North, where all the money and population is, from getting a similar feeder series up and running?

How to do it? And how to get the numerous cars/drivers out on the track? That is the primary burning issue.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by GT 86

I commend you for the post but its all too similar to what we have. I agree with CDM, not only are budgets not there any more, also adding to that issue is the time needed to follow this potential series over the summer period plus the holiday period loadings we all have to pay. With the exception of TRS which isnt made for NZ anymore, its made for foreigners and NZ teams to run them, most people want to spend time with the family, especially after this summer and that goes for attendees as well.

I think TRS was always shaking the cup around for foreign drivers to come over, but I notice they got aggressive about it after the GFC and they had that one season where grid numbers were not very good(9-10 cars at some rounds? I can't remember). Then I started seeing a lot more advertising overseas and blurbs in places like Autosport.

If you are a cashed up Euro who needs some drive time and some seasoning, certainly it's a great option, which is why many have taken it up and filled out the field.

What happens next, I don't know. Personally I'd like to see something a bit more exciting with more horsepower.

[socram]

Not really for me either. The only category in that list I'd pay to watch would be F5000.

To be perfectly honest, I enjoy the HRC two day meetings with 12 classes, even if they are mainly local drivers.

A wide variety of makes/models is my preference and so no matter how close the racing, and accepting that it is now a great stepping stone, the Toyota Series has never lit my fire, nor have Suzuki Swifts.

I'd far rather see a grid of those wonderful old specials that seem to be very common in the South Island; open saloons; older TransAms; Muscle cars; grids of mixed classics; vintage grids; GTs, Formula Junior/Historics.

The fact that there are virtually no modern cars is just that I can't get very enthusiastic about any modern category other than possibly the GTs.

As for my own racing, as stated above, a maximum of six or seven meetings spread throughout the season, without the need to travel further than Taupo is within my budget - just, but I haven't even bothered with Taupo since I reached Gold Card status! Any mechanical problem nowadays may mean missing half the season on the grounds of either parts availability or costs, or both.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by socram

Any mechanical problem nowadays may mean missing half the season on the grounds of either parts availability or costs, or both.

Thats the thing isn't it? The 'base of the pyramid' are genuinely enjoying their sport on a shoe-string.
I believe it is crucially important that organisers/officials etc never lose sight of this.
When the cost to fun ratio gets out of whack people find other things to do.

It is also important for those who are trying to drum up interest in a 'series' of any type. It doesn't take much to derail 6 - 8 of your 16 entries at seasons start - as we've seen over the years.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

It is also important for those who are trying to drum up interest in a 'series' of any type. It doesn't take much to derail 6 - 8 of your 16 entries at seasons start - as we've seen over the years.

Spot on! We have 120 fully paid up drivers for this season. Twenty of them haven't managed to turn a wheel so far - and there are several struggling with rebuilds, either parts availability, finance, or time.

As our average driver age has crept up to 54.36 yrs, as at today, there are now a significant number of retirees with vastly reduced income (and physical condition in some cases - includes me!) The cars of choice aren't getting much younger either, so trying to keep a Triumph Dolomite Sprint, Fiat, or old Volvo engine running, is getting tougher by the year.

[bluespur]

I am a little disappointed in this thread - was hoping that there would be some indication regarding establishment of a series that showcased our major national championships was important - but this does not seem the case - perhaps it is time to put it to bed

however I am not in favour of that because I believe that we should have a Championship series for our championships - yes it probably needs to be cobbled around TRS given they are an important component of it. But not all categories need to be at all TRS meetings and there is scope for one before Xmas and certainly one in March.

I would like to see on the schedule like TRS, V8 touring cars, a single make saloon series, FFord FFirst, a big grunter modified series, smaller modified saloon series, a local club class - now a mixture of say 5 of those groups at each meeting could be attractive and I am sure a good promotion could be arranged around them that would be pushed to non-motorsport enthausists.

then of course there is the question of who actually does this - do not see a long queue of promoters lining up for the task. Like it or not it was something that TMC did well - yes felt they did lose their way in the last couple of years - but for a number of years they did provide for MSNZ a championship series

[Bill Brown]

If I was asked to promote a meeting at a circuit around the country with my choice of classes excluding NZV8 and Supertourers it would go something like this:
Muscle Cars including some Aussie Masters big names, for the petrol heads
Toyotas for the single seater purists
F5000 for the Classic fraternity
Super Trucks for the dedicated truckies
Top NZ motorcycle class
D1NZ for the young people
Honda Cup or similar if there is room

Something for everyone to bring the punters through the gates

[HProject]

I think it'd be great to have the D1NZ form a relationship with some circuit racing classes. Would be beneficial to get some of the drift-folk onto the 'grip racing' band-wagon.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

If I was asked to promote a meeting at a circuit around the country with my choice of classes excluding NZV8 and Supertourers it would go something like this:
Muscle Cars including some Aussie Masters big names, for the petrol heads
Toyotas for the single seater purists
F5000 for the Classic fraternity
Super Trucks for the dedicated truckies
Top NZ motorcycle class
D1NZ for the young people
Honda Cup or similar if there is room

Something for everyone to bring the punters through the gates

You'll never get the trucks to Pukekohe or HD, why run a series without a big drawcard like the ST's in at least some of the meetings though?

Also D1NZ are their own thing, like the drags, you will not get enough interest from either camp in combining them.

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

You'll never get the trucks to Pukekohe or HD, why run a series without a big drawcard like the ST's in at least some of the meetings though?

Also D1NZ are their own thing, like the drags, you will not get enough interest from either camp in combining them.

There are more circuits than Puke and Hampton, The thread title did ask that we exclude ST & NZV8. It was a hyperthetical meeting for discussion purposes only.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

There are more circuits than Puke and Hampton, The thread title did ask that we exclude ST & NZV8. It was a hyperthetical meeting for discussion purposes only.

Yes I am aware that there are more circuits than Puke and HD, but my argument was that if you were going to use trucks as a big drawcard (which they often can be) then you'd have to think of something else before you came to the two circuits closest to the biggest population centre in the country.

[Swedish Brick]

Problem with that is drifters don't mix well.

These days it certainly seems you can only have a couple of national classes.
Under that there should be say north and south classes.
They can fight thier own champs and maybe in alternative years hold a one off national champs meeting in their respective islands with the top cars from the other island invited.
Could base a whole weekend around the battle of north vs south

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Problem with that is drifters don't mix well.

These days it certainly seems you can only have a couple of national classes.
Under that there should be say north and south classes.
They can fight thier own champs and maybe in alternative years hold a one off national champs meeting in their respective islands with the top cars from the other island invited.
Could base a whole weekend around the battle of north vs south

they do have the ability to pull a crowd

[Swedish Brick]

Has their crowds behavior improved of late?

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Has their crowds behavior improved of late?

Really my suggestion was for a crowd pulling mix something for everyone.

The drifting on TV3 Sunday was really a professional show.

[HProject]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Really my suggestion was for a crowd pulling mix something for everyone.

The drifting on TV3 Sunday was really a professional show.

Oversteer TV do an awesome job producing the D1NZ stuff. I can't comment on the nature of the drift crowds, having never attended a drift event outside of the Drift Shifters event last year - but I think most categories in NZ would be more concerned with quantity than quality, when it comes to paying spectators.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Has their crowds behavior improved of late?

unsure, has alcohol been banned at every round??

is there plenty of room for carpark donuts between qualifying and the battles??

[KLR93]

Id agree, and knew someone would say that, but how many rounds do these historic classes / events have? And what sponsorship do they attract?

A 1-2 weekend festival vs 6-7 round national championship

I LOVE watching F5000s but i and many others would hardly see this and other similar classes exploding with popularity with a target demo again. It's 2013, the kids are going to ask will it skid?

Credit to anyone pulling a good crowd in the current situation, and if gate sales continue to float the series financially then what more could you ask for?

But what do these other classes want? Crowd numbers? Sponsors? Or just more track time? Putting a number of classes on show is money for a promoter but is your sport and category actually benefiting?

With the supercars on this weekend its a friendly reminder to what most kiwis are into and save money for...

[bluespur]

Perhaps trucks are past their use by date?