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17 Sep 2007, 21:22 (Ref:2016230) | #1 | ||
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Safety issues
As I understand it, regulations for historic racing are either:-
a) seat belts and roll hoop or b) neither There are diagrams in the blue book as to the height of the hoop in relation to the helmet - so why do drivers persist in driving cars with their head level with or even above the protection? If the car flips and buries itself into gravel - death or serious head/neck/spine injury is highly likely. However, I have not heard of an instance where the srutineers have picked up on this point. Surely safety is as big an issue as is cheating! Or is it not 'macho'? |
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17 Sep 2007, 21:48 (Ref:2016259) | #2 | ||
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Like a lot of things it is not that simple. A lot of Historic cars where built in an era when the height of the roll hoop was not regulated. With a lot of cars you can not just weld a higher hoop on. Seatbelts are simular. No good putting belts onto a chasis that was not designed for them.
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17 Sep 2007, 22:34 (Ref:2016289) | #3 | ||
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Yes I understand the point that some cars cannot have seat belts hence a) or b) but it is when they are fitted incorrectly I have problems with the concept. It gives a false sense of security.
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17 Sep 2007, 23:07 (Ref:2016304) | #4 | |
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I personally wouldn't race without a rollcage/hoop, even if it spoiled the car, but the I'm 29 and have grown up with "safe" cars!!
It has always amazed me that certain manufactures decided to cut out weight from their cars be down-sizing the rollcage, ridiculous in my opinion, but then some preparation companies used the rollcage to hide certain bits (no, I so want to post on the TWR SD1 thread again!!), Actually, I'm going to backtrack a bit, if someone offered me a drive in a DBR4 Aston Martin or BRM 16 then I would take it but I'm not sure if I'd want to race them; I'd be happy on the track but I think the people now that own and race these cars are too competitive and don't realise what the downside is; someone will get killed or seriously hurt if you hit them/knock them off. |
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17 Sep 2007, 23:17 (Ref:2016314) | #5 | ||
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Heaven forbid if someone is killed and some insurance company has to pay out an enormous sum, something will probably get done as regards roll cages. Seat belts are another matter in historics, as most of the guys prefer to get thrown out( raving mad) They weren't compulsory even in saloon car racing in the early 60s and at first most only fitted lap and diagonal ones. I cant remember when belts were fitted std in road cars in the UK but I can remember fitting them as an extra on new ones on the pre delivery checks. I believe Volvo were the first major car manufacturer to fit them in 1959.
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
17 Sep 2007, 23:47 (Ref:2016324) | #6 | |
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As much as my Dad was a racer and would drive anything I think the safety thing was always on the back of his mind, not on all all circuits, but jurt as a general observation; can you imagine what he would have been like in an F5000? Okay Baby Bertha was as quick but if Dad got in a F5000 then why not a F1 car?
It was always noticeable that him and Tony L would use the old cicuit coming out of Paddock down the hill at Brands but they were both the only people to say "remove the tyres and sand trap there and replace the armco with a big metal spike, that will show the men from the boys!!". Safety is a huge thing, as I found out at Thruxton this weekend, I had a huge spin at Church and thought that was me about to roll, it reminded me of John Wingfield being killed there and Pete Kitchening almost losing his foot, but that's 30+ years ago. Lets make sure circuits are safer; I personally feel Thruxton is one of the few that hasn't changed and to me that's great, when I watch in-car footage of Dad I know I'm doing the same (only a bit slower though!!). |
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Gregor Marshall |
18 Sep 2007, 08:09 (Ref:2016518) | #7 | ||
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2yrs ago a very good friend rolled his HRG at Copse,no rollprotection or belts,he was trapped in the upturned car and dragged along the tarmac causing terrible damage to both hands,broken shoulder and very bad bruising,to say he was lucky would be an understatement!.I think that with the improved grip the circuits offer these days,Roll hoops should be mandatory,I know they look unsightly but------
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
18 Sep 2007, 08:48 (Ref:2016561) | #8 | |||
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18 Sep 2007, 10:55 (Ref:2016709) | #9 | ||
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you need to be able to have a piece of string run uniterrupted from teh top of the hoop to the front of the car - I know it can be unsightly (and on some US cars a bit OTT) but I would not drive a car without belts and hoop. Its not just the flipping aspect but the whiplash on a head on or tail on shunt
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18 Sep 2007, 13:34 (Ref:2016937) | #10 | ||
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Perspective please people...
Motor Racing is Dangerous....what part of Dangerous do people not understand??
On the weekend I saw a very bad crash, helmet well below the roll bar, well belted in...but still multiple injuries....I'm not trying to be clever....but really, maybe some people should go and grow flowers if they can't bear to see people injured in what is an inherently risky business. [caveat: I do not and never will wish to see people injured racing, but, if you think it ain't ever gunna happen then you are a fool] |
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The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!! |
18 Sep 2007, 13:53 (Ref:2016961) | #11 | ||
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Not disputing motor sport is dangerous, however it does not have to be reckless!
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18 Sep 2007, 11:09 (Ref:2016728) | #12 | |
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I've seen some pretty woeful cage prep on tin tops ( less so in the last 2 years or so ) and cages that quite frankly may as well be plastic drain pipe
likewise belts and seats mounted on foil thin floor pans, bolts with no washers etc, scary, I'll happily add a few Kg to a car to make sure what I bolt in stays exactly where it is! |
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18 Sep 2007, 12:42 (Ref:2016860) | #13 | ||
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Gordon - seat belts were made compulsory for front seat driver & Passengers in February 1983, though I think there was initially some retrospect date of first used exemptions as well as certain vehicles.
One reason I started this post was that when my husband was racing in period 1961 or 1962 a fellow driver flipped his car (Spridget) at Brands, Martin went to help and picked up the helmet complete with head! There have been several rolls in single seaters in recent years at meetings I've attended but in each case no serious injury was suffered - each one had an acceptable belts and roll -over hoop. Last edited by LYNX; 18 Sep 2007 at 12:45. |
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18 Sep 2007, 13:54 (Ref:2016962) | #14 | ||
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275 GTB-4 I dont know if you race or not but whilst of course you are right it is all about trying to eliminate unneccessary risks. This involves spannering the car properly before the race, wearing the right protective kit and finallly (in my mind) wearing belts and having a rollbar.
If I race 10/10ths with belts and a rolbar against 8/10s without I am making a better spectacle for the spectator so everyone should be happy. |
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18 Sep 2007, 13:58 (Ref:2016965) | #15 | ||
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For a (comprehensive) trip round these issues, see:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58635 or perhaps: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88574 Regards Jim |
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18 Sep 2007, 14:58 (Ref:2017012) | #16 | |
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As Lynx said, I think we all agree and acknowledge motor racing is dangerous but it's those around us that are reckless that the main concern is about at the moment.
You only need to look at the top levels of racing we get in the UK to see how reckless drivers have become and when these "star" drivers come into our "historic world" and race in the same vein then the problems begin. Also, we are racing these historic cars quicker then they went in their day and sometimes it is just too quick for them. |
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Gregor Marshall |
18 Sep 2007, 15:38 (Ref:2017061) | #17 | |||
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Regards Jim |
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Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
18 Sep 2007, 15:43 (Ref:2017065) | #18 | ||
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Gregor Marshall |
19 Sep 2007, 12:51 (Ref:2017907) | #19 | |||
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Perspective
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Therefore, I would argue your point about making a better spectacle...to me, sometimes just seeing the car on the track used in anger is reward enough. |
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The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!! |
18 Sep 2007, 15:57 (Ref:2017072) | #20 | ||
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I'm sure the Dunlop Formula R's we use Gregor are a bit better than the ones in period, I used to use them on my road car (Healy 3000) and they were as hard as hell! (or reading Jims post was you talking about tyre barriers??)
I can give you a nice example here of idiotic UK car preparation and I don't know who owned the car before but he should have been shot for doing this. Its not just his neck what happens when he sells it or lets someone else drive it (I would never be a magazine car tester for any amount of money). On the IROC project I am renovating it has or more correctly has been fabricated around a Banjo Matthews NASCAR Stockcar tubular chassis. All the floor sections in fact every thing bar the roof and rear quarters are fabricated from thinner than stock sheet. The tubular chassis is a work of art with every major component hanging off it, all the suspension, engine mounts, gearbox mounts and very cleverly the seat and belt mounts. Now along comes our UK man and at one stage must have decided to put in a cheapo Cobreau seat. So what does he do, make up a stout subframe and bolt that to the integeral chassis seat mount, Oh No far to simple, he bolts the bloody thing to the thin metal floor one good yank and the bolts would just pull straight though like they had started to and to cap it all he also bolts the crutch strap to same lightweight floor not to the existing mount already designed in by the Penske engineers. Doughnut! PS Lynx your discription of the Brands accident made me shudder :-( Last edited by Al Weyman; 18 Sep 2007 at 16:01. |
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18 Sep 2007, 16:20 (Ref:2017089) | #21 | |||
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Regards Jim |
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18 Sep 2007, 19:56 (Ref:2017336) | #22 | ||
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I would rather run off on to a bit of tarmac than slam into a tyre wall, whats the matter with you guys?
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You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter! |
19 Sep 2007, 06:55 (Ref:2017612) | #23 | |||
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19 Sep 2007, 07:12 (Ref:2017618) | #24 | ||
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Me too,just because these run off areas are there,it does not mean there is less skill involved in keeping it between the lines.There are some kerbs that have to be used,not just at Spa,just to keep the momentum going.As long as all four do not cross them,then wheres the harm.There is not one driver out there who could claim that he has never used them,in some cases,they will actually help you stay on the tarmac.
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Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me. |
19 Sep 2007, 09:25 (Ref:2017719) | #25 | |||
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For run-off, there are places where gravel is good and there are places where tarmac is good. Sadly this is complicated because different types of accident can happen at the same place and would benefit from different sorts of protection. Add to that the complication that bikes benefit from different things from cars and you can appreciate the difficulty which circuits have in pleaseing everybody. Regards Jim |
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Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
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