[LM24] Is Le Mans Going to Be Neutered For 2012?

[gregtummer]

I recall a few posters on here discussing the Radio Le Mans guys saying how the ACO has a 3:30 lap time obsession and if the times are below that in 2011, that the track may be changed.

Also they said the circuit is up for accrediation this year and that they may need to make changes to keep hosting the race.

Has anyone heard any updates about this?

[Carsandmotorracing]

None here, i'll go on a rampage if it's true though.

[Aysedasi]

Nothing at all.

[Ferrari333SP]

This whole 3:30 lap time obsession is just the stupidest thing.

[AstonGeoff]

Le Mans was neutered many years ago with the two chicanes on Mulsanne and the changes before and after the Dunlop bridge.

I doubt they would change the circuit again for next year, it's not as simple as just deciding, planning and all sorts of red tape need to be negotiated! But they could always change the regs slightly to slow down the faster prototypes, a bit of weight maybe.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by AstonGeoff

Le Mans was neutered many years ago with the two chicanes on Mulsanne and the changes before and after the Dunlop bridge.

I doubt they would change the circuit again for next year, it's not as simple as just deciding, planning and all sorts of red tape need to be negotiated! But they could always change the regs slightly to slow down the faster prototypes, a bit of weight maybe.

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

[Ferrari333SP]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

For me, I'd much rather enjoy seeing all the cars fly down the Mulsanne at tops speed, to really see what the cars can do. It's like watching the Nurburgring 24 Hours; the most exciting part of the track there for me to watch is the long straight, as you really get to see what those fast cars are made of. You don't get to see top speeds much of anywhere these days, including LeMans, which is a shame I think.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Nothing was quite so evocative for me as the sight of the cars in the old Group C days bursting under the Dunlop Bridge and charging down to the Esses. The curves keep the cars in view for a little longer for the camera lens but for me, changing one of the classic Le Mans views for bikes was (and always will be) sacrilege of the highest order.......

[Ferrari333SP]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I actually like the Dunlop Curves. It provides a great shot of the cars as you look up from below as the cars start down the crest.

It is actually one of the few changes to any motor circuit in the past 30 years that I have enjoyed.

Whoops, somehow thought you were talking about the chicanes on the Mulsanne, not the Dunlop curves. In any case, I'm kind of indifferent towards the changes there. It was an iconic image to see the cars go down the hill after the bridge, but the new curves present a decent passing opportunity, and the swoopy nature of it looks like it's fun to drive.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Also they said the circuit is up for accrediation this year and that they may need to make changes to keep hosting the race

The race has been nutered enough , since Ive been going .

The sound decible thing is bull , as witnessed by the F1 tracks complaining that the Fia new F1 regs would be quieter . People want sound , not mufflers !!!

If there was threat of the race not being held , imagine what that would do to the economy of a small sleeply French town .

I agree with AstonGoeff , the new section after the Dunlop bridge was unnessessary and it turns out quite dangerous too .

[Adam43]

If they had to do it then they made a good job, but I too prefer the previous version.

However, let's face it, it was ruined in the '70s. I don't know why we bother.

[Purist]

They can only make the race MORE dangerous now, by adding more corners, or slowing the LMPs any more. The low-percentage maneuvers we saw this year should be a damn clear wake-up call that the LMP1s and LMP2s NEED more top-end speed compared to the GTs.

There was a great little interview on the SPEED Channel coverage during the McNish caution. Justin Bell caught up with his dad (Derek) out behind the paddock. Derek thought that the advances in car and track safety were a good thing. However, he firmly believes there are too many corners at Le Mans, which means there now are too many spots where LMPs MUST take absurd risks to get by the GTs, and also that 240mph, in a straight line, shouldn't be a problem in this day and age.

They've actually been dealing with this issue some on downhill skiing. That is, they've been taking out some corners that had been added previously to try and improve safety. However, the corners make the courses more taxing, which significantly increases the chances of a mistake and a crash. And when you're in those corners, you're pointed more directly at the fencing, but in skiing, you don't have a safety cell around you, so that fence is going to be none too kind to your body when you hit it.

If it were my call on Le mans, I'd reinstate the full Mulsanne, the old Dunlop Curve, and the straight run from the Dunlop Curve to the Esses. The other thing I would do there, by the Dunlop Bridge, is set up a dedicated spotter's post for the teams. This last item should be put in place ASAP anyway, to minimize the chances of a repeat of the MicNish, or similar, incident.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Purist

They can only make the race MORE dangerous now, by adding more corners, or slowing the LMPs any more. The low-percentage maneuvers we saw this year should be a damn clear wake-up call that the LMP1s and LMP2s NEED more top-end speed compared to the GTs.

There was a great little interview on the SPEED Channel coverage during the McNish caution. Justin Bell caught up with his dad (Derek) out behind the paddock. Derek thought that the advances in car and track safety were a good thing. However, he firmly believes there are too many corners at Le Mans, which means there now are too many spots where LMPs MUST take absurd risks to get by the GTs, and also that 240mph, in a straight line, shouldn't be a problem in this day and age.

They've actually been dealing with this issue some on downhill skiing. That is, they've been taking out some corners that had been added previously to try and improve safety. However, the corners make the courses more taxing, which significantly increases the chances of a mistake and a crash. And when you're in those corners, you're pointed more directly at the fencing, but in skiing, you don't have a safety cell around you, so that fence is going to be none too kind to your body when you hit it.

If it were my call on Le mans, I'd reinstate the full Mulsanne, the old Dunlop Curve, and the straight run from the Dunlop Curve to the Esses. The other thing I would do there, by the Dunlop Bridge, is set up a dedicated spotter's post for the teams. This last item should be put in place ASAP anyway, to minimize the chances of a repeat of the MicNish, or similar, incident.

Lap times under 3 minutes!

The cars would have to be snails to run slower than 3:30.

They could just give the LMP1s and LMP2s more top speed. These accidents didn't happen before this year, as in the previous years, LMP1s would blow by everyone on the straights like they were standing still.

[Purist]

That's a big part of the point. The LMP1s and LMP2s need their top-end speed back for the straights.

In theory, I'd also like to see the Esses, Tetre Rouge, and Mulsanne returned to their old profiles. They used to be significantly slower corners. Taking away more of the reasons for these higher-downforce set-ups would certainly help the LMP/GT issues.

If they really want a "limit", make it 3:15 or something. A 3:30 is ridiculous, as a Porsche 917LH did a 3:13.9 in 1971. On a more practical note though, making the Le Mans circuit more top-end relevant would force the cars to be trimmer by default. This would have the added benefit of slowing cornering speeds at every track these cars visit. This would be safer, and reduce concerns over escalating average lap speeds.

The ACO will have no choice but to abandon the 3:30 limit, as the LMPs are making a mockery of it already, and this is necessary in order to keep the LMPs enough faster than the GTs. The GTs can only be pegged back so much before the manufacturers fail to see the point of making them, when they have to take away half their horsepower to make the "racing version". How stupid will that be.

NBU38, the Nordschleife only has one real straight, which still isn't entirely straight. A chicane anywhere else would make the high-speed corners afterward no challenge at all. The Nordschleife also already has dozens of esse bends, so a chicane adds NOTHING of value to the track. And that radically undulating Dottinger Hohe Straight is an indispensable signature of the track, period.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Purist

If they really want a "limit", make it 3:15 or something. A 3:30 is ridiculous, as a Porsche 917LH did a 3:13.9 in 1971. On a more practical note though, making the Le Mans circuit more top-end relevant would force the cars to be trimmer by default. This would have the added benefit of slowing cornering speeds at every track these cars visit. This would be safer, and reduce concerns over escalating average lap speeds.

The ACO will have no choice but to abandon the 3:30 limit, as the LMPs are making a mockery of it already, and this is necessary in order to keep the LMPs enough faster than the GTs.

3.30 isn't an arbitary number it's what's deemed the safe limit in terms of average speed on a circuit of this nature. As said it is a guide and does allow hot laps below that limit.

Comparisons with the 917LH are irrlevant, that car would struggle to get under 4m on the modern circuit while current cars would be knocking on 2m on the '71 configeration.

Speeds in all formula have hardly budged in the past twenty years, rule makers ony seek to keep speeds in check and improve safety standards, the alternative is to alter circuits or a development freeze. The spectacle wouldn't improve if P1's were lapping at 3m or Indycars averaged 250mph, there would only be a greater risk of driver injury, and who has the appetite to race if a driver is seriously injured or worse.

[Adam43]

Upped his life insurance? Is that because his life became worth more after driving down the N138? As it surely was! Or did he think the premiums should go up because of the increased risk I suspect that is apocryphal, but it is a good story.

Do the FIA have to sanction Le Mans even if it isn't one of their official events? I've never understood the nuance to this, if there is one. In the US many bodies operate outside the FIA. Might be different in Europe. Sorry for the dim question.

Some places are legal to be on the Mulsanne, although not official spectator enclosures.

I'm all for it, but then I don't have to make the choice!

As for the 3m30s guideline, I think part of the problem here is that people outside the ACO have got fixated with this too. It is their guideline, but we suppose that cars will be pegged back between qualifying or sandbagging is going on to stop performance leveling.
I suspect they just use it as a guideline, but look into more detail of how they cap speeds.
Unfortunately some capping is needed. Truly unrestricted would lead to some crazy lap speeds, albeit spectacular!

Why 3m30s? I don't know. First chicanced good race lap times were around 3m40s. So for me, I am not too fussed about the actual number. Especially as it is only a guideline.

[Le Vieux]

I have a vague recollection going back to the Balestre/FFSA/FISA days, when the chicanes were suddenly introduced, that a threat was made along the lines of "put in the chicanes: if you don't install them, any driver that races will have his FIA licence withdrawn".

The ACO has a history of defying motor sport's governing body going back many decades and so far, the ACO has always come out on top, but I'd hate to be around when they lose. The 1955 disaster produced far-reaching ripples throughout motor sport and that in an era when safety wasn't a widely-considered problem. In the 21st century, the speed lobby is sufficiently strong to have very serious consequences for Le Mans, should there be an accident that could (even remotely) be attributed to perceived excessive speed.

[Steve Tarrant]

From http://www.sportscars.tv/Newfiles/'9...sprtotype.html

"The winter months saw prolonged agony for the teams as a futile and damaging battle was fought between FISA and the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, organisers of the Le Mans 24 Hours. The age-old question of TV and timing rights was at the heart of the fight, which descended into a bitter personal struggle between Jean-Marie Balestre and the intransigent bosses of the club. In December J-MB added a further dimension by insisting, through the FISA Safety Commission, that circuits could not have a straight greater than 2 km in length. Le Mans would have to build two chicanes on the legendary 5.7-km Mulsanne, or else. Advantage Jean-Marie..."

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Steve Tarrant

From http://www.sportscars.tv/Newfiles/'9...sprtotype.html

"The winter months saw prolonged agony for the teams as a futile and damaging battle was fought between FISA and the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, organisers of the Le Mans 24 Hours. The age-old question of TV and timing rights was at the heart of the fight, which descended into a bitter personal struggle between Jean-Marie Balestre and the intransigent bosses of the club. In December J-MB added a further dimension by insisting, through the FISA Safety Commission, that circuits could not have a straight greater than 2 km in length. Le Mans would have to build two chicanes on the legendary 5.7-km Mulsanne, or else. Advantage Jean-Marie..."

And as we know now of course, the right decision is Jean-Marie Balestre's decision.......

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

And as we know now of course, the right decision is Jean-Marie Balestre's decision.......

[Purist]

And the ACO should have said they'd do their own licensing, and threatened action under anti-trust legislation. And maybe they should have talked to CAMS, ADAC, and NASCAR/CART about doing the same in the US, Germany, and Australia.

Frankly, I can't understand how the FIA is legal with laws such as Sherman in place. Even if the FIA were a government agency in France, I still can't see how it could have legitimate reach outside of that country.

[Gil Abobeleira]

The same can be said of FIFA, UEFA, UCI and other sporting regulator that there is! I have never understood how they are legal, in spite of all the antitrust laws that exist since the 70s!

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Purist

And the ACO should have said they'd do their own licensing, and threatened action under anti-trust legislation. And maybe they should have talked to CAMS, ADAC, and NASCAR/CART about doing the same in the US, Germany, and Australia.

Frankly, I can't understand how the FIA is legal with laws such as Sherman in place. Even if the FIA were a government agency in France, I still can't see how it could have legitimate reach outside of that country.

Since when did any organisation act with cohesion with another.

It easy to sit here 20 odd years later, but at the time the FIA put a gun to the ACO's head. It was all power play at the time and the FIA wanted to clip the ACO's wings.

The Le Mans track has always changed, however there are key sections that gave the track its id. Fro me it was putting in the dunlop chicane and the run down to terte rouge. Once that went so did the spirit.

Changing the straight did not upset me quite so much for some reason, maybe its because there were now 2 epic straights instead of 1!

[gregtummer]

What is ironic to me is that I've heard the run from La Source to Les Combes @ Spa is longer than any straight at Le Mans.

Of course don't tell the FIA/ACO about this......

Shhhh!

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

What is ironic to me is that I've heard the run from La Source to Les Combes @ Spa is longer than any straight at Le Mans.

Of course don't tell the FIA/ACO about this......

Shhhh!

Technically, although it probably is a flat-out blast in most high-downforce cars, it isn't straight all the way...