Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

[Ubique]

Well I guess the title of this thread is pretty self explanatory. In several of the threads on here I've noticed that there seem to be a few people who believe that to be a good marshal you need to be happy flagging but is this the case and have these "good" marshals ever tried any of the other specialisations?

I ask this following a long season during which I have noticed a significant number of marshals who are unwilling to upgrade to experienced on the basis that they don't like flagging and resent being forced to do it. Does this make them bad incident marshals?

We all started marshalling to give something back to the sport we love and when numbers are low I'm pretty sure that we all accept the need to multi task but numbers are now improving so do we still need the requirement be a flaggie to upgrade? From my own perspective I'm an IO and a Specialist Marshal but absolutely hate flagging, it just bores me senseless and I get absolutely no enjoyment out of doing it. Now don't get me wrong I can, and have flagged when needed but it's not a role that would make me want to marshal.

Personally I think that flagging is a specialist task that takes time to become good at. I can even understand the logic of trainees having to learn flagging so that they can perform the duty in an emergency and so that they understand the flag role but can't the same reasoning be used to say that they should have an understanding of other specialist roles i.e pits/startline or assembly? But what I can't see is the need for someone who wants to go Track to Experienced track and stay on the incident stream of the grade to be forced to flag.

Thankfully people have started to see sense and reintroduced the flag grade but I feel it's been put back at the wrong level as now it's on a par with IO. In the old system you went Trainee - Course (Green) and then specialised as either Incident (Red) or Flag (Blue) and IO grade was denoted as either Red/Black (Incident stream IO) or Blue/Black (IO with flag grade). That system worked.

For me I'd like to see all trainees give each role a go so maybe to become a qualified marshal they could do 20 days Incident, 2 days Flag and 2 days Specialist (for trainee Specialists swap the days for Incident and Specialist above) that way they would be able to decide what role they wished to follow and if they don't want to ever flag again then they wouldn't have to.

OK so what are your views? Personally I worry that if we keep forcing people to do things that they don't enjoy we will start seeing them give up marshalling.

[Darren Holmes]

No, not wanting to flag does not make you a bad Marshal at all, I don't want to do pits, startline or assembly, in fact after I started flagging I no longer wanted to do incident either.

I agree the flag grade is at the wrong point in the grading system, it should be a choice after Track and there was a very robust thread about it at the time it came back in, a search might find it.

A good marshal is a good marshal regardless of the role they perform.

[juliet]

I'm glad you bought this up, I am a trainee I will have completed about 20 days by the end of this season and am starting to think about when I should try and upgrade next season. The thing at the moment that is putting me off is the flagging aspect. I have spent one day watching someone flag (this may have been the problem) and occasionally waving the green flag and i really didnt enjoy it.

Now as i mentioned it may be the fact i wasnt actually doing it i was just watching or it might have been that all hell was breaking loose on track and felt i would have been more help down there, but either way spending a few days flagging is something i know that i have to do at somepoint but something i am not looking forward to.

The other thing that puts me off is that quite often flagging is a fairly solitary position, one of the main draws of marshalling for me is the banter and the feeling of being part of the team.

So no i dont think it makes you a bad marshal but then i may have a biased view at the moment.

If there are any silverstone flaggies out there that think they can sway me, let me know!

[The Flagman]

'A volunteer is worth ten pressed men' actual quote so not sexist. Believe it has its origins in naval crews centuries ago.

Folk forced to flag may well underperform. Its a specialist discipline that requires a high level of concentration. This can make it very tiring and on three day meetings I tend to crash 'sans alcohol' by 10.00pm Sad! The upside is the involvement, particularly on long distance races or Historics with greater speed differentials. It can be quite solitary and better for Billy No Mates as if you are concentrating you can't hold other conversations.

The contrast when I do ES (rarely) is that I sometimes haven't a clue who is where in the race but at the end of the day I'm far less tired. For ES a long distance race or historics may be dull and the likes of Caterhams running close together be much more appealing.

I quite understand people who don't get the flagging thing. Means I am rarely short of a spot on post and we tend not to have to queue for long to sign on!

A factor often overlooked is the difficulty of flagging with circuit provided flags. Most are lousy and make it much harder than it need be. Donington flags shoulld have a health warning as they can genuinely lead to strained muscles. Try some lightweight flags used by keen flaggies and you will be amazed.

I found flagging came with the arrival of middle age spread. When I couldn't do the 100m sprint with bottle I felt it safer to confine myself to post. Still doesn't stop you getting out with a broom at Cadwell and Silverstone oil slicks. Is it me or have we had a spectacularly oily 2011?

Truth is we are volunteers - only have to volunteer for what you want to do. Be good at that and there is no case to answer about whether or not one is a good marshal. We need ES volunteers and we need flag volunteers - well until they come up with workable chase cars and light systems.....

When your faculties really deteriorate you can become a Post Chief.

[sunny.traveller]

[QUOTE=juliet;2976108] The other thing that puts me offis that quite often flagging is a fairly solitary position, one of the main draws of marshalling for me is the banter and the feeling of being part of the team. QUOTE]

I guess that depends on the circuit and the post you are on, I mostly marshal at Brands Hatch and the flag points on the Indy circuit at in the same position as the incident points - so plenty of oppotunity for banter & sharing of skills/knowledge.

I'll be at the Birkett at Silverstone on Saturday where I am sure I will be flagging - an super race to flag I must say. And John Baker will be there as well, so you can meet hime & see his excellent flagging skills.

[juliet]

I will have to keep my eye out for you sunny.traveller as i am also there on Saturday and then the weekend after for the walter hayes.

I would love it if you guys could change my mind and get me interested in flagging because as we know if i do want to upgrade i am going to have to master it. maybe i just need a bit of inspiration!

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by juliet

occasionally waving the green flag and i really didnt enjoy it.

if it was neither an fia event or the lap after safety car gone in, you might not have enjoyed it for all the people telling they were doing it wrong!

p.s. the only thing, does it have to be silverstone flaggies only that can tempt you into flagging?

[juliet]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

p.s. the only thing, does it have to be silverstone flaggies only that can tempt you into flagging?

Nope doesnt have to be silverstone marshals or flaggies its just silverstone is just down the road so this time of year i tend to do most of my marshalling there (i dont like camping in the cold!)
maybe i should have worded it flaggies at silverstone! am also at Rockingham for the winter series too

[exflagman]

Agree wholeheartedly that not wanting to flag does not in any way make you a bad marshal, in the same way that me not wanting to be an observer - and spending 25 years trying to avoid the role, made me a bad marshal - tried it, was c**p at it. Didn't mean i didn't do the job if persuaded(forced) to.

I can see why the MSA would want everyone to be capable of doing any job - after all most people on this forum probably think they could do a better job then that lot in the MSA

Unfortunately I believe they have gone about it wrong way as regards the flagging side of things.

The main problem I see is the fact that a trainee has to get a flagging assessment in order to get upgraded from the dreaded novice/trainee tag.
In order to achieve this they have to spend some meetings flagging when they have only just started marshalling and hence they probably feel ill equipped to do what most people percieve as a difficult job.

Some will undoubtedly say that it is up to the experienced flag marshals to overcome this apprehension by giving adequate training, and to some extent I would agree.

I think this brings us to the real heart of the problem and something that maybe was not really anticipated when creating the current upgrading system - its is very difficult to teach flagging to trainee marshals, it was hard enough to do it under the old system when you normally only had to contend with trainee flag marshals, who at least, could be expected to have one or two years experience of being trackside and an understanding of how things operate.

Having had some experience of trying to help trainee flag marshals gain the required experience to achieve the 'blue' upgrade, I can appreciate why some flag marshals may be unhappy to take on extra training duties.

Having been out of the sport during the current system I have no experience of what training the experienced flag marshals are given in how to train the trainees - anyone like to enlighten us?

In another thread Ian Briggs asked 'what it would take to persuade experience people like me back to the sport'. Well, apart from a massive pay rise, I am not sure, maybe some feeling that the upper echelons of the sport had some appreciation of how things operate at ground level.

At the moment the BMMC web site does not give access to the training guidelines document as it is 'awaiting update', but what I can remember of the previous version it did not really seem to give much information of what level of training you are expected to give a trainee during their suggested 5 days 'flagging'.

It would be interesting for people in this situation to enlighten us. Where do you start and how far do you need to take the training

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Well I guess the title of this thread is pretty self explanatory.

It depends on whether you definition of "good marshal" includes the phrase "able to flag when needed".

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

It depends on whether you definition of "good marshal" includes the phrase "able to flag when needed".

Not necesarily no. I mean if you went to sign on and were told you were running the pits or startline or assembly could you do it? And if not would that make you a bad marshal? No ofcourse it wouldn't so why should flagging be any different to any of the other specialisations? Being a Flaggie and being Incident require very different skill sets. I know a lot of very good Incident Marshals that can't flag to save their lives but by the same token I know a lot of excellent Flaggies who would admit themselves that they are a liability at Incident handling.

The point of my question is to see what we all think which is why there is no right or wrong answer but I do feel that as it is an issue that has been raised to me several times this season and having read some of the views on here needed wider discussion. Hopefully those that have a say in running marshalling will, to use an American expression "Wake up and smell the coffee" and realise that the rank and file of marshalling while happy to help do things they don't enjoy once in a while are getting fed up of being forced to do it to progress.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Ubique

I mean if you went to sign on and were told you were running the pits or startline or assembly could you do it? And if not would that make you a bad marshal?

It depends on whether your definition of "good marshal" includes the phrase "able to run pits or startline or assembly when needed".

[fazza]

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

[skeee]

Originally Posted by fazza

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

I have to agree.
I don't like to neither but.............

when there's only two of you on post

So I agree but I see the other side.
I imagine the real 'problem' (if there is one) is that as volunteers we are much less likely to say "Stuff that!" (insert your own phrase) when there is only two of you on post. Of course you could always stick to popular meetings when you can be assured of sufficient numbers.

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by fazza

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

i also agree with fazza...

i don't like flagging but i will do it if needed and do it happily
just don't force me to do it (MSA please note)
i've gone from white to green this year and i've had to waste 4 meets flagging when i really want to do incident, to get green.

some one said it's a talent to flag, and i really couldn't agree more.
give me the yellow, green or red nooooo problem but give me a blue and i'll struggle.
as Mr Gordon Knight (a gentleman and flaggy i hold in high regard) once told me "no one has died because of a lack of a blue flag"

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

i also agree with fazza...

i don't like flagging but i will do it if needed and do it happily
just don't force me to do it (MSA please note)
i've gone from white to green this year and i've had to waste 4 meets flagging when i really want to do incident, to get green.

some one said it's a talent to flag, and i really couldn't agree more.
give me the yellow, green or red nooooo problem but give me a blue and i'll struggle.
as Mr Gordon Knight (a gentleman and flaggy i hold in high regard) once told me "no one has died because of a lack of a blue flag"

Thats exactly the point I was trying to make Steve, none of us mind doing it when absolutely needed but alot of people don't like the idea of being forced to do it just to get an upgrade. Like I said I understand everyone needing to know the basics about flagging so that we can do the duties in those situations but once you have been taught the basics why force someone to do it anymore? Like I was once told multi tasking is being able to do more than one thing to an acceptable level, whereas specialising is doing just one thing but at a high level. In other words I'd prefer to be on post with a group of people who are able to specialise than a few people who are better described as "Jack of all trades master of none".

[NewYankee01]

[QUOTE=Sparky-steve;2976234]i've gone from white to green this year and i've had to waste 4 meets flagging when i really want to do incident, to get green.
QUOTE]

"waste meets" is a very dodgy thing to say as a marshal about a meeting, very dodgy indeed, it makes you sound like youre upgrade chasing with due respect... this is coming from a white to green this year, difference is ive done 30+ day incident which isnt my preffered but i feel im more ready when i upgraded. take youre time, then you wont feel like youre "wasting weekends" trying to get as many meetings within a year so you can maybe upgrade in as short a time as possible. even if you continue in feeling that way dont say that on here fcs!

[juliet]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

"waste meets" is a very dodgy thing to say as a marshal about a meeting, very dodgy indeed, it makes you sound like youre upgrade chasing

With respect newyankee i didnt read it like that at all, I admit that it might not be the best use of words but we all marshal because we love it, we drive for miles and give up time with our friends and family because we enjoy what we do. i interpreted that comment as more there are things that he would rather have done with his weekend than flagging. and i dont think there is a crime in that

[Terrible-Tones]

This question of "forcing" people to do "Flagging" to get an upgrade is one that has reared it's head a number of times. Quite a lot of people give me feedback as I am on the SM Committee. I have had several people report that they will not bother to upgrade from Track to Exp Track (despite being clearly ready to do so) on the basis they simply do not want to do 5 days flagging. This seems such a waste, especially as it is clear that these guys/girls understand flags, and could certainly do it at a push.

I have reported this back to committee several times - but I am unsure if it has fallen on deaf ears.

However, from Trainee to Track you don't have to do any days flagging at all, but you have to have an assessment day for flagging. So it is up to you whether you wish to ge the practise in or not. IMHO this is about the right balance - I believe every marshal out on track should show an understanding of flags.

From Track to Exp Track you have to do a flag assessment and show 5 of your (at least) 15 days are flag days. This is where we run into the issues. All the MSA are asking is that you can prove that you can step up and at least help out if needed in flagging terms. A single day (which could be your assessment day) will show that. IMHO there is no need for 5.

5 days is an odd amount - too many to merely prove competence (ie get the right flag at more or less right time - useful in emergency manning) but no marshal will ever say you can be an expert in 5 days. So it is an "in between" figure and does not reflect the needs in any way.

This may all be arbitary anyway - the system is about to change (see BMMC website under "Grading") and the new guidelines will be published soon. I have no idea what is in them, but hopefully our comments about this, the recent thread re who can sign attendance sigs, and the number of days required for an upgrade, have been taken onboard.

[hellblade]

Originally Posted by fazza

Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

Very easy answer, NO

That pretty much sums it up it think,

I dont like flagging either at the moment, its not a highlight for me, but you should be willing to 'take one for the team' so to speak if there isnt a dedicated flaggy and your asked (ive done it before).

Trainee's have no choice but to flag a little but hey two days realy isnt that bad

Luke

[Slipstick]

So does preferring to flag make you a bad marshal ?

I'm just starting out marshalling again but since I'm now old and fat I'm rapidly realising that I'm not really fit enough to go running through gravel traps carrying heavy extinguishers. I can (just about) manage it and as a trainee again I'm happy to try but I reckon I'd probably be more genuine use on the flags (and I have always enjoyed flagging). At least that might allow one other fitter better incident-trained marshal to do what s/he prefers.

I'd like to think that there's something useful for all of us to do but I'm seeing the point of the grading scheme as ensuring that we all are capable in a pinch of doing any of the important tasks. If it was up to me I'd also include at least a day or so in the other specialities. If you've never tried Pits/Startline or Assembly are you certain you wouldn't like it ?

Steve

[Red_08]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

If you've never tried Pits/Startline or Assembly are you certain you wouldn't like it ?

That's a very good point Steve. I suppose we all look at other areas of Marshalling and make a judgement on whether we fancy it or not, but until we've tried it out proper, we wouldn't really know for sure.

I specialise in an other area of Marshalling and have recently only managed a handful of days on the bank, so for me, I chose to do Track duties. If called upon to flag, I wouldn't hesitate though.

My view is that it doesn't make anyone a bad marshal by not wanting to flag. We are after all, volunteers, and if Joe Bloggs turns up for the day and their day is ultimately ruined by being "forced" to Flag then I don't think that is fair. We want to enjoy our day at the meeting, after all that's why we do it. But, if push came to shove and there was no-one else in the crew confident enough to do it, or those allocating duties told you there aren't enough flaggies, then step up to the plate.

Elliot.

[The Fat Clerk]

I'm the worlds worst Flag Marshal - I know it and everyone that's ever seen me do it knows it. I did it for 1 season (1987) just to go through the upgrading system. I take my hat off to those of you that do it and do it so well. My personal favouritte being John Baker @ Brands.

[vintage]

Come on Ex Flagman this should be a good one for you.

[Woolley]

Another vote for 'no it doesn't'. It's useful to be aware of what it entails, and conversely, if flagging it's useful to understand what the incident guys are doing but to me there's an analogy in rallying. Some drive, some co-drive, some can manage either but they're not the same roles or skill sets and you need all kinds to make the team.

You could ask the same question of 'not to want to be a Post Chief', because that's a job I don't want to do.