Jacques rips Schumacher a new one

[botsquad]

From Atlas-F1:
Ferrari's Michael Schumacher is an aggressive driver who cannot take criticism, according to former world champion Jacques Villeneuve.

"Aggression has become involved only because he (Schumacher) will not listen to the opinion of other drivers," Villeneuve is quoted as saying in the latest issue of German magazine Auto, Motor und Sport.

"It goes in one ear and goes out the other," the BAR driver said. "He entrenches himself behind the impression that we want him harm."

Canadian Villeneuve is one of several drivers to have accused Schumacher of reckless driving, notably at the start of races.

"Criticising just for the sake of it is not my style," Villeneuve told the magazine. "I will get annoyed at anybody who starts like Schumacher.

"Coulthard's start in Hockenheim was not acceptable either. He only did it to repay Michael."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

jacques: you're booring. maybe you need a podium finish. maybe you need to finish. shut up.

[fatbloke]

As usual, Jacques says exactly what he thinks - though, this time, he's spot on. Well said old boy.

[Liz]

I hope that when Jacques hangs up his helmet, he will get a job in commentary. Too bad he and James Hunt can't broadcast the F1 races together!

I agree with fatbloke. Jacques is right.

[Jay]

Jacques is right, but what he is saying is not exactly big contraversy.

I get tired of seeing headlines that say 'Driver X thinks driver Y is an arse". Yes, and what else is new. Do we have to hear every time one driver opens his mouth about another?

But, yes he would make a good commentator

[Sharky]

Ah.....I like drivers that speak their mind....for me it's one of the things that make F1 what it is. And besides.....he's not telling any lies.

[Peter Mallett]

He's welcome to speak his mind. However, I'm not convinced that the starts are dangerous. Its racing for gawds sake. Its dangerous and people are supposed to go for what they can get. If that means everything by the first corner then so be it. DC was not as close to MS as people appear to think. Nor was MS that close to DC at Imola.

Sorry but I don't buy this dangerous starts thing. We've discussed elsewhere the ethics of it so I see no need to go over that piece of track again.

[Nuvolari]

I come down with Peter and Jay on this one.

Get on with it, Jacques.

[RussianFriend]

TFG is over-motivated to win WDC and belives that this end justifies any means. He doesn't see or hear anybody except a car before. If any guy puts obtacles great and horrable Shummi's way, it's not TFG's blame. Give way, plebians! Napoleon drives!

Indeed, then TFG take his helmet off, he become normal. I think, it's a kind of paranoid coplex.

[MichaelC]

I think I'm on Jacques' side. I always believe that if you have an opionion, give it. There's no point sitting on the fence (unless you are sitting on a fence).

That said, there is the saying that "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear an idiot, than open it and remove all doubt"

...which is what I have just done. I'll be going now then.

[Valve Bounce]

I have watched the start of the German GP many times, including using freeze frame. It is my opinion that the tactic of swerving in front of other drivers is dangerous. It is not necessary simply racing when drivers swerve like that across the track at the start. This is a very dangerous practice, and it is desperation to the extreme. One of these days, a car will be catalulted over the pit wall as a result, and someone will be killed. Excusing it simply by saying it is racing is not sensible in my opinion. This will lead unnecessarily to a pile up in the not too distant future unless the practice is banned. Running another racer off the track is also racing, but it is not condoned. This is the same as Max Biaggi running an opponent (Loris Capirossi, I think) off the track and saying "This is not the classical music". Better than the "this is not time for coffee" or something like that. However, moves like these provoke a similar reaction from other drivers, and leads to innocent parties suffering. Do we stand by and say that this is racing, and wait till someone gets killed s a result of swerving.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
I have watched the start of the German GP many times, including using freeze frame. It is my opinion that the tactic of swerving in front of other drivers is dangerous. It is not necessary simply racing when drivers swerve like that across the track at the start. This is a very dangerous practice, and it is desperation to the extreme. One of these days, a car will be catalulted over the pit wall as a result, and someone will be killed. Excusing it simply by saying it is racing is not sensible in my opinion. This will lead unnecessarily to a pile up in the not too distant future unless the practice is banned. Running another racer off the track is also racing, but it is not condoned. This is the same as Max Biaggi running an opponent (Loris Capirossi, I think) off the track and saying "This is not the classical music". Better than the "this is not time for coffee" or something like that. However, moves like these provoke a similar reaction from other drivers, and leads to innocent parties suffering. Do we stand by and say that this is racing, and wait till someone gets killed s a result of swerving.

I shouldn't really bother responding here but. Those camera angles foreshorten things quite a lot. As someone with a little experience but less skilled than DC, MS, RB etc. I would say that whilst its dangerous (motorsport is) its not beyond the wit of someone with their skills to avoid each other. We seem to be applying "normal" reactions to people with "high levels of skill". Or are we saying that these guys are just ordinary club racers like me.

Sorry but I still don't agree that the moves are life threatening unless those drivers who suffer the chop make it so.

[Liz]

By losing control over their cars and catapaulting into the crowd, perhaps?

TGF causes Frenzy's car to go into the crowd by swerving dangerously in front of him, then goes to the funeral of the spectators and blames the late Frenzy for the carnage.

Yep, that's racing.

I just think of Senna and Prost at Estoril and how close that came to being outright murder - that is not racing.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Liz
By losing control over their cars and catapaulting into the crowd, perhaps?
...............................................................................
Yep, that's racing.

Very emotive Liz, but your scenario is unlikely. The whole thing revolves around the will to race for position or back off. These guys don't get paid to back off. Sorry but I musr repeat that the TV camaeras don't give an accurate view. These highly skilled drivers have so much more thinking time than us mere mortals.

The sound bites are just that. Points being stirred up for media attention.

Senna and Prost Estoril? I thought it was Mansell (black flagged) and Senna.

[Valve Bounce]

Peter, are you suggesting that TGF running Fisi off the track, and this other guy running into TGf in the previous race is an illusion? I supose you are trying to tell us that you are much more clever than Jacques and David in assessing the danger of the swerving moves at the start? The over head shots give an accurate view. What you were suggesting is that anything goes because it is racing, and I disagree with you. These highly skilled drivers are less capable than you are of perceiving a dangerous situation. But then again, you are an esteemed club racer. Hell!! Why didn't I figure that one out??

[angst]

Unfortunately there seems to be a general feeling within the FIA that anything goes from certain drivers, depending on their position in the sport. It seems that the likes of Zonta have 10sec stop/go penalties for racing incidents, and yet those at the front of the field can swerve all over the track and the likes of Messrs Ecclestone and Whiting see no problem with it. It's going to take a serious accident for this to be taken in it's correct context, so all this rubbish about DC,JV et al being cry babies will go on until the inevitable happens. Just ask yourself - WHY would they be making their feelings known on this if there wasn't something for them to upset by? - WHAT do they have to gain from it?

[Liz]

No, it was Senna running Prost so close to the wall at Estoril that if Prost had moved a millimetre, the cars would have locked wheels and catapaulted over the pit wall, likely killing people. That was the first time Prost said in public that Senna was insane and added, "If he wants the race badly enough to kill for it, he can have it." Their relationship was broken from then on. And of course Prost was called a liar and a crybaby ... but five years after Senna's death, people are admitting that maybe he had a point to make.

I hope it doesn't take a death for people to realise the truth this time, but I am not holding my breath.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Peter, are you suggesting that TGF running Fisi off the track, and this other guy running into TGf in the previous race is an illusion? I supose you are trying to tell us that you are much more clever than Jacques and David in assessing the danger of the swerving moves at the start? The over head shots give an accurate view. What you were suggesting is that anything goes because it is racing, and I disagree with you. These highly skilled drivers are less capable than you are of perceiving a dangerous situation. But then again, you are an esteemed club racer. Hell!! Why didn't I figure that one out??

You are of course entitled to your opinions sir.

However, Overhead shots, or not, the fact remains that if you are paid to race and the rules mitigate against "after you claude" reactions then thats what we will be seeing.

I also said that these guys were way beyond my meegre talents. So I repeat. If they can't stand the heat they can get out of the kitchen. If the rules change then they can complain. I know I would.

Nope. Those incidents were not illusions. They were racing incidents pure and simple.

Liz,

Very similar to the Mansell Prost incident mentioned previously.

I think the rules and the tracks have been re-designed with all of the things you mention, taken into consideration. We are constantly reminded that motorsport is dangerous. That means the spectators as well. I really think we are moving this topic into a whole new area. The thread was that somebody thought it may be good that JV takes a stab at MS. Where does that connect with endangering spectators or pit crew?

Back to MS Fisi at Hockenheim. I believe that was "the fault" of MS who over reacted but it was just a racing incident. If we take the view that running close together is dangerous then we may as well ban racing now. Mind you, that may be what the FIA is trying to do?

[botsquad]

now irv is spouting off again saying F1 is boring and nobody can race with team ron and yadi yadi ya.

and yet, irv and jv and and everyone else gets all ben-outa shape when racing stuff happens .


i hope they all get in the spirt of a good fight when they get to ims. instead of a drivers meeting, irv treats everyone to to night of lap dances at the cat-lounge.

lots of fist fights. lots of broken stuff.
just get it all over with.
then go out at ims and treat america to real racing.

[Valve Bounce]

Peter, you seem to be dodging the issue here. It is not the after you Claude situation that the drivers are concerned about - it is the sudden swerving in front of other drivers at the start. The point we are all making is that other drivers are or will be adopting the TGF mode of swerving knowing it to be acceptable to Charlie Whiting. And all this will eventually lead to a fatal accident which nobody really wants.
Regarding the overhead shots, it can clearly be seen that TGF did swerve across in front of Fisi, forcing Fisi off the track. With two wheels off the track, there is not much Fisi could do, and he hit TGF as a result. You will see that the rear wheel of the Ferrari is very close to the front wing of the Benneton.
This has nothing to do with getting out of the kitchen because the heats too great. This has to do with all drivers avoiding a dangerous manoevre at starts.
Now, DC and others will also be swerving, and TGF will be th enext to complain because he will be the loser when run off the track.

[Liz]

Pete, was that the time when Mansell grabbed Senna by the throat and told him to be sure the next time he did that to finish the job?

VB that's the point I was trying to make - if it's okay for TGF and DC to do it, it's okay for Mazzacane and Diniz to do it - and they are likely to kill someone because they are not as skilled as the front running babies. Perhaps Bernie and Max and the like think it's "exciting" when the more skilled pilots try to kill each other because they are likely to get away with it. But when Diniz swerves in front of Mazzacane that is not going to be exciting. That is going to be carnage.

[renniesmill]

the real reason why Villeneuve and irvine blast TFG about his start is not because its dangerous...
its because in f1 these days, passing another car is mission impossible, so drivers tend to do it at the starts, and guess who are good at starting?? mr villeneuve and mr irvine....

just a new thought...

[Peter Mallett]

Valve Bounce,

My apologies, if I appear to be "dodging the issue". Maybe its because I'm not certain that there is any issue. I have already said that I don't think the moves are illegal or indeed dangerous (in terms of F1). I also don't think that JV's comments (the thread topic) are relevant to anything other than a need for the media to keep F1 in the public eye.

However if you really think that my opinion counts and if you also think that the "issue" is that the drivers "swerve" across the bows of following drivers, I would state my position as thus.

Under racing conditions, things get fraught. Cars run very close together at the start of a race. It has always been thus. Sometimes a driver is forced to cover his line by using what to us mere mortals appears to be a dangerous move. I don't think that these startline moves are any more dangerous (in F1 terms) than two drivers vying for a corner later in the race. That is my position and I hope I have now covered the "issue" to your satisfaction.

[Valve Bounce]

Peter, I think that several drivers have made it clear that there is an issue. From the start of the race in Hungary, it does seem that TGF Silvester has moderated his swerve, and Mika did comment on this, that they are in a racing situation, and they obviously behaved correctly and both drivers got through the corner 100%. I do suspect that TGF Silvester has finally realised that if he gets another DNF, his WDC hopes will take a severe knock.
I think that DuC has earlier covered the point of swerving at starts, and some of us agree with this: it is a very congested situation, and swerving under these conditions can lead to accidents. It is a shame that the no overtaling conditions at some of the tracks has resulted in this frantic rush at the start. Perhaps, a modification of certain tracks, especially Hungary, would make overtaking possible, and avoid this frantic mad scramble for the first corner.
I for one, would not like to see cars flipping over at any time - running off the track into a tyre wall is different.
Maybe I have a different perspective to accidents to many motor racing watchers, (especially the speedway fraternity). After the deaths of several drivers including Rindt and Petersen, I actually stopped following F1 for several years.
I hope this lets you understand better where I am coming from.

[Peter Mallett]

No problem. Stirling Moss commented recently that because the cars are so much safer, the drivers take more risks. I tend to agree so when judging a situation I take the current standards into consideration.

I don't think TGF was any more circumspect this weekend than previously, he was forced to give way by a faster car at the first corner. Also, if he had "swerved" across DC at that circuit, he would have been on the dusty side of the track. That's why (IMO) DC made such a bad start.

[Valve Bounce]

Peter, I thought TGF Silvester was going to swerve in front of Mika - he could have forced him to back off, and I was surprised that he didn't. I saved the tape, and watched the start again, and I am still surprised that he let Mika through so easily.