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22 May 2019, 06:13 (Ref:3905179) | #201 | |
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Equal stints to Toyota (potentially) is a big deal. The lap longer because of the hybrid may be gone. If that's the case then it's the right thing to do.
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22 May 2019, 13:24 (Ref:3905222) | #202 | ||
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BMW kills off the WEC program with the M8, though the IMSA program is set to continue. Also, former Peugeot LMP1 technical boss Bruno Famin joins the FIA in a newly created operational role.
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22 May 2019, 13:53 (Ref:3905225) | #203 | |
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Excellent, let's hope the decline of GTE continues.
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22 May 2019, 14:20 (Ref:3905229) | #204 | ||
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TF Sport confirms GTE Am program with a new Aston.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...programme.html |
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22 May 2019, 14:22 (Ref:3905230) | #205 | |
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I guess BMW didn’t like the way the series is going. I think staying in IMSA suits them
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22 May 2019, 14:23 (Ref:3905231) | #206 | |
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not a surprise actually...
basically the same 2010-2011 M3 GT2 schnitzer specs script repeats... bmw tries to force ACO to accept a not regular car in its concept... ACO doesn't accept bmw is forced to redesign the car under homologable specs car performances are disappointing bmw withdraws... |
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22 May 2019, 14:56 (Ref:3905235) | #207 | ||
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To be fair, and I've seen the BMW M8 memes everywhere, the M8 in GTE/GTLM guise not really any wider than the GTE/GTLM spec Ferrari 488 or Porsche 911 GT3 RSR. The racing M8 is only like 5-6mm wider than the Ferrari. The Ferrari is 2040mm wide, the M8 about 2046mm, GTE/GTLM max width under the current tech regs is 2050mm.
Basically, the M8 is about the diameter of a 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington rifle bullet's worth of width wider than a GTE 488. The failings of the M8 is that it's a big GT car as far as the road car goes, not a sports car like the Ferrari 488, Porsche 911, the Aston Martin Vantage or the Corvette Z06. Let alone the Ford GT, which can be seen variously as a modern execution of the McLaren F1, a prototype with a road car body, a DTM or Super GT/JGTC GT500 car with a road car body, or a modern Daytona Prototype with a carbon tub. Don't get me wrong, I like the new BMW 8 series and I think that it's a great road car for what it is, a big GT car like the Aston Martin DB11, or the Lexus LC. But as a GT racing car in a class dominated by sports cars or sporting GTs? Not really. Granted, the M8 and BMW Motorsport have had an easier time getting performance balancing help from IMSA with the M8 in the WeatherTech Series vs getting help from the ACO in the WEC. Though also to be fair, AMR were similarly no where in the WEC with the new Vantage at first, especially Spa and LM last year, but since Silverstone '18 they've made steady and significant improvements in performance and have gotten a few podiums and even have a race win at Spa on merit. BMW and MTEK just haven't been able to make the same improvements on the WEC side of things. |
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22 May 2019, 15:21 (Ref:3905236) | #208 | |
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Hope to recall correctly but M8 issues are not about width but lenght and height.
In 2017 BMW was going to design the ultimate wingcar gte, having M8 to be in their initial plans, longer than any ohter gte and considerably lower than the street model. ACO denied any waiver, so bmw had to redesign the M8 according to homologable sizes. They had to destroke the engine to 4L as well, even if it remains the most brutal engine among gte, with drivers using to upshift below 5500rpm... considering that 500hp @ 5000rpm = 712Nm... just wonder the insane torque release.... M8 gte is basically nowadays c6r gt1 |
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22 May 2019, 15:40 (Ref:3905237) | #209 | ||
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22 May 2019, 16:04 (Ref:3905240) | #210 | |
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22 May 2019, 16:06 (Ref:3905241) | #211 | ||
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IMSA with DPI do seem to favor GTE/GT3 engine sizes with adjustments to get them up to 600 or so bhp. Granted, the original Caddy LT4 was 6.2 liters, and just used the basic block and heads from the stock LT4. Then to make BOP easier, RCR/GM destroked the engine from 6.2 to 5.5 liters.
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22 May 2019, 16:17 (Ref:3905243) | #212 | |
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actually isn't about IMSA gt3 engines favoritism; it's about that for a manufacturer is much easier and cheaper to bring a street/gt3 engine and tune it up to 600hp than design a bespoke engine.
The M8 beast motor is just OP! nothing else could match that torque release. Aside that, guess it would be required a lot of work on any chassis to fit it. If ever BMW would greenlight a dpi program, guess that the new dtm 2L turbo would be the best choice. |
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22 May 2019, 16:54 (Ref:3905247) | #213 | |
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WEC GTE Pro has been awesome this super season and it really has been the GT racing at its finest. The summit of that category has been reached it appears now. Downhill from here.
I imagine Ford will say good bye after Le Mans too. And that GTE will have just 3 manufacturers full time across the pro and am landscape. That will kill interest. I think GT racing future is going to be fuzzy until the prototype situation is worked out. At least on the WEC side. |
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22 May 2019, 19:38 (Ref:3905265) | #214 | ||
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I sort of brought this up in the IMSA thread, but I'd like to expand upon it here. Is there much of a performance gap between GT3 and GTE/GTLM cars now? A lot of them seem to have similar aero, similar power plants and power ratings, similar base minimum weight, and so on.
Could GT3 maybe be a reasonable replacement or supplement to GTE/GTLM? We already know that the Ferrari 488 and probably the Aston Martin Vantage GT3 and GTE cars are or at least seem very similar. Also, GT3 seems to be more privateer friendly and in addition to Aston Martin, Porsche, Ferrari and (possibly) Ford, you have Audi, Lamborghini, Honda/Acura, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, McLaren and probably 1 or 2 that I'm neglecting to name. So should the ACO maybe down the road look at GT3 to replace the current GTE regs, since the cars have been moving in a similar direction with regards to rules and that GT3 does seem to be more privateer friendly and has more variety than present day GTE? |
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22 May 2019, 20:01 (Ref:3905269) | #215 | |||
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Quote:
I have no idea if that is the real performance gap, or if it is due to the GTD cars being pegged down. Is that not partially because they have some tech that the GTLM cars don't have? Pwer stering or ABS or traction control, or something like that? Something that makes live easier for a non-Pro driver, at least IIRC. Bentley and Lexus. |
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22 May 2019, 20:42 (Ref:3905275) | #216 | ||
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In IMSA, the GT3 cars are restricted to create separation between GTLM and GTD. At Fuji, a GT3 spec Super GT GT300 BMW M6 ran a faster lap than a GTE spec Ford GT.
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22 May 2019, 20:47 (Ref:3905276) | #217 | |
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I may not remember correctly, but I think a lot of the GTLM-GTE-Pro advantage is aero. The GT3s are almost as quick on a long enough straight (which makes Daytona so much fun for GT drivers) but the GTE/GTLM cars have a lot more aero for braking and cornering.
Not sure the manufacturers dropping big bucks in GTE/GTLM would take kindly to a lot of privateers trying to build their own---not sure the GT3 manufacturers would want their names on home-made GTE specials ... and as I recall, some manufacturers have simply ruled out the expense of GTE/GTLM (Audi, McLaren as I recall.) |
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22 May 2019, 20:49 (Ref:3905277) | #218 | |
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A GT3 car ran in SuperGT spec, not exactly the same as a GT3 car running that lap time. And what were the conditions of each run? It doesn't seem like most tracks were GT3 and GTE/LM run they really are a toss up for who's faster. And stuff like ABS needs to be removed if you want it to be a true Pro class
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22 May 2019, 21:12 (Ref:3905280) | #219 | |
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gte/gt3 convergence failed due different manufacturers targets and interests
it's quite complicated to explain, I'll give a quick try: AERO about aero, maybe gt3 cars generate more downforce than gte from wing and bodywork but for sure gte have better undercar aero and diffusers that make gte much better aero efficient; or to better say: generating less drag, at same value of downforce N (or kgf) generated, gte reach higher top speeds and consume a bit less. TIRES IMSA gte and WEC gt-pro can use confidential tires without any development limit. Each gt3 has an homologated tires size set and usually compete in series with a single tires supplier. Due customers oriented nature, is useless to say that gt3 teams and manufacturers can't develope and use confidential tires. Of course gtopen and IMSA gt3's using michelin are more competitive than BES gt3's that use rubbish pirelli. WEIGHT gt3 is a bop bound class and because of extensive use of bop ballast, gt3's use to have a min. weight from about 1280kg to >1350kg. Gte are a bit lighter with a min. weight range from 1240 to 1280kg. Need to say that gte are produced with more advanced carbon panels and parts and without ballast are even lighter than 1100kg, while gt3 unlikely are below 1200kg stock out of factory. ENGINE for most of gt3's, engine is basically the road motor, just made more robust to last about 10000km and managed by the manufacturer's ECU working with an homologated firmware and setting. Teams are not allowed to alter factory ECU settings.... sometimes even manufacturer isn't (ask spa 2016 AMG teams...). Gte engines share the block of the road motor but are produced with much more bespoke racing parts. Because of these updated parts, gte engines use to reach the target power (about 520hp for both gte and gt3) at lower rpm than gt3. Example, both 458 gte and 488 gt3 had a 4.5L NA V8. 458 gte drivers used ot upshift at about 7000rpm, 488 gt3 drivers had to push up to 9000rpm to get the same power. Because of that gte have a slightly better fuel miliage. Gte need to burn 90-95L for about 65 minutes stint lenght, some gt3 model need to burn even 110L for an usual about 70 minutes BES sting lenght. GEARBOX gt3's have homologated and mandatory gear ratios and can't be changed; gte's gear ratios are free and teams can change them according to the track (example short ratios for laguna seca, long ratios for le mans) ECU gt3 cars have an homologated ECU with homologated firmware and settings. Teams can't touch that. To help silver and bronze am drivers, gte have TCS, ABS and some other electronics assistance devices for sure. Gte teams can use custom ECU setting, even if only work and semi-backed teams have the know how to work on it. Private gt-am teams are usually assisted by manufacturers engineers. ABS is not allowed in gte, while TCS it is. Let's say that with michelin confidential tires, a lower min. weight and a better developed undercar aero, gt3 would be in the same league with gte. Side effect of that is that gt3 will become as expensive as gte and most of hundreds of private teams will drop for something cheaper. Last edited by canaglia; 22 May 2019 at 21:19. |
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22 May 2019, 21:15 (Ref:3905281) | #220 | ||
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Quote:
that happened about 7 years ago when gt3 had some waiver to compete against gt300 prototypes; from 2013 (or 2012) most of gt300 entry list is made by gt3 and are full gt3 spec since SRO bop is used |
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22 May 2019, 21:34 (Ref:3905282) | #221 | ||
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Both the LMGTE and Super GT/JGTC GT300 lap records were set a few months apart in 2016:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuji_Speedway#Records |
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22 May 2019, 21:46 (Ref:3905285) | #222 | |
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Canaglia's post #221 says it well with the correct summation---if GT3 could run at GTE levels, it would cost GTE money and most fo the teams would go to GT4 or whatever was a step down where they could afford to be competitive.
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22 May 2019, 21:56 (Ref:3905287) | #223 | ||
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Quote:
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22 May 2019, 22:00 (Ref:3905289) | #224 | ||
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Quote:
actually gt3 of gt300 have always been a bit faster than WEC gte during the years.... my bet is that japanese teams know better the track and know how to set-up better their cars. |
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22 May 2019, 22:09 (Ref:3905291) | #225 | |
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But that much faster given the same cars?? That seems like a bit less setup than something else on the car. It's not like there are slow Am drivers in the GTE cars.
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