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20 May 2020, 14:18 (Ref:3977346) | #1 | ||
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New classes for MSN/MSVR circuit rallies
I see that Motorsport News Circuit Rally championship has announced 2 new classes to encourage the clubman for the 2020/21 season.
One new class is for 4x4 cars with H pattern gearboxes and the other is for non-homologated pre 1980 “historic” cars with OEM engines and H pattern boxes. Further details to be released later. Sounds good to me, in principle. http://msnrallychamp.co.uk/2020/05/20/n ... n/#respond |
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20 May 2020, 15:44 (Ref:3977359) | #2 | ||
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The 4wd class makes a lot of sense - there are plenty of Subarus and Evos out there that are never going to be able to keep up with the R5 and WR Cars. I suppose the same is true in the 2wd classes - our Escort has a sequential box and a non-oem engine - so on the one hand we're part of the problem, on the other our car is nowhere near the spec of the top cars in our class. 10 years ago our car would have been a decent spec, now it's well off the pace - we don't have the budget to keep up with the development curve. We could change it to a lesser spec - but again that's more expense and the class structure is only relevant for the MN championship so you'd be further off the pace on other events.
In some respects it's the usual problem - a championship becomes popular so the cheque books come out and the clubmen drop down the order. Using an R5/WRC on a single venue event seems like collosal overkill to me (but I do like seeing them in action ). One of the events we did there was a crew putting on a new set of tyres after every pair of stages (as in 4 brand new tyres every 10 or so miles) - there's no way a clubman competitor can compete with that kind of outlay. The MSN championship is doing a great job of putting rallying in front of "non-bobble hat" people though and the events we've done have been enjoyable - there also seem to be quite a few "first time drivers" at the events so hopefully they're a way of getting more people into the sport. |
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20 May 2020, 16:51 (Ref:3977370) | #3 | |||
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As for the competitors chucking tyres at it, then that will always be the way but perhaps they could help the budget conscious by selling on their “used” tyres at cheap prices. Alternatively perhaps the regs could limit tyres either in numbers per competitor or to List 1B or 1C etc as do many club level race series. |
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21 May 2020, 08:30 (Ref:3977468) | #4 | ||||
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21 May 2020, 08:53 (Ref:3977473) | #5 | |||
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21 May 2020, 15:08 (Ref:3977546) | #6 | ||
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I had never read about this championship.
So they use rallycross sections and surrounding roads? |
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Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
21 May 2020, 15:24 (Ref:3977554) | #7 | |||
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There are chicanes made up from bales and/ or tyres to keep it twisty. Often stages 3&4 will be the reverse of stages 1&2. There will then be a change in configuration at lunchtime and stages 7&8 will be the reverse of stages 5&6 There are usually 6-10 cars on the stage at any one time. Some circuit rallies will have short sections of smooth gravel linking tarmac sections and the Oulton Park rally has a water splash. Hope that all makes sense? This is video of a circuit rally at Donington Park. Hope you can see the sections of track compared to the linking sections. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDWVVlZNjGQ And this one shows a rally at Oulton Park. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dkBjcnrHl0k The first part shows the cars using Oulton’s low grip “drift circuit” on the infield before joining the main circuit. Last edited by andy97; 21 May 2020 at 15:34. |
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25 May 2020, 14:51 (Ref:3978225) | #8 | ||
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Thank you!
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Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
25 May 2020, 17:33 (Ref:3978251) | #9 | |
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Being someone who attended quite a few of these allies initially, I then stopped going.
Why? Because they are basically rally sprints, not rallying in what i call its purest terms. I attended Donington, Snett and Brands and Cadwell a few times and although interesting ina basic view and well attended, the events are so dumbed down as to be nothing like a true rally, yes you are timed and there are notes, but there is little of the challenge of say the old Cadwell rallies. Palmer detests people going on his grass so the stages are often designed with heavy chicane and even sometimes barriers to make a mistake damage your car, you have to run spares and can;t run on flat tyres, Donington initially has a nice little infield section, that was fun, yet that was abandoned for some reason. I will say Oulton's event looks better, but again the good bits you can't get to over from the start line. I was simply frustrated in the end watching the same layouts over and over again, and just endless acceleration runs for the drivers from corner to chicane. It is all we have and for me it saw out the years after the spectator ban on single venues but I feel looking at entries this year a lot of the drivers have had enough and would rather do more road based events as that is real rallying, not this contrived Palmer sprint stuff. That is the future I hope. |
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26 May 2020, 10:29 (Ref:3978362) | #10 | ||||
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Barriers only damage cars if you hit them - obvious but true, forest events have trees all over the place but they're only a problem if you hit them. No difference really - there are things not to hit on every rally, dodging them is half the fun! Not being allowed to run on flat tyres is also not specific to circuits - there are other venues where we've been told to change the wheel if we get a flat. That's more annoying than the chicanes as you can still shift at a fair old speed on 3 tyres and a rim (going through "The Snake" at Longcross with no front left tyre was an eye opener!). I can understand the reasons though - and the chances of getting a puncture on a circuit event are considerably less than other venues (we've never had a tyre let go on a circuit event - usually lost 1 per event at Longcross). Quote:
The circuit rallies are good fun and allow the service crew to see the action - often they don't get to see any of it (they have no choice but to believe our tales of exactly how that dent got there ) and they're easy for family and friends to come along and watch us throw the car about. They're also a good way to get people into the sport - there are a few circuit racers that have come and had a go for example. That can only be good for the sport - they're also cheaper than a multi-venue event so are valuable from a clubman point of view. Closed road events are a different beast - and I'm certainly with you in hoping that we see more of them in the future but I wouldn't say they were 'better' than the circuit events - they're just 'different'. There's a place for all of the event types - hopefully we'll see rallying grow again |
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26 May 2020, 10:51 (Ref:3978368) | #11 | |||
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Oulton has a gravel section, a low grip handing section and a water splash so hardly a rally sprint. And I am sure that I got to see all of that the last time I was there. And I think that Snetterton also had a water splash this year for the first time, although I didn’t attend, as well as using many of the internal twisty paddock roads. The drivers I have spoken to all seem to enjoy it and the entries have been good at every round I have spectated at (Oulton, Snetterton, Donington). |
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27 May 2020, 20:42 (Ref:3978788) | #12 | |
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I simply dont believe they are proper rallying
They are sprint events that cater for very certain sorts of cars, I remember years ago talking to admittedly rich crews at an airfield moaning about having to adjust their suspension and use different tyres because the surface was not very good, that to me is a part of rallying, not turning up in a hillclimb car setup basically for circuit racing. it serves a purpose but for me, these events would not exist in the main rally season, they exist to make Palmer and other venues money off season and are designed to impact the venue as little as possible. They are click bait for the off season a bit like the car shows at the same time. AS I say they serve a purpose and you can see with this raft of changes the people running them are trying to claw back interest. The closed roads scene is the future, always has been, to bring us in line with the rest of Europe in particular and hopefully these circuit events in my opinion stay off season for people who don't really know much about rallying to watch at, as for fans like me, they are really not worth the effort to watch at anymore. But as is the case with most club level motorsport these days, the punters are the last people these events, circuits etc think of. |
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27 May 2020, 21:13 (Ref:3978793) | #13 | |||
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I think that the closed roads are a fantastic initiative and a great spectacle and all us rally fans want to see more of them but i remain sceptical that there will be as many as people think. I think there could be a great deal of opposition from the environmental lobby and even from residents who dont want any disruption to their lives. I hope i am wrong but i think those thinking that closed road rallying is a great new dawn maybe sadly mistaken. |
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27 May 2020, 22:51 (Ref:3978804) | #14 | |||
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First thing, cheers for using my vids hope they give a good idea as to what you see. For me, as sumone who can't drive for medical reason, its prity much impossible to get out to the forests to watch a "proper" rally. These SVR's wether stand alone events or part of the MSN Championship are a great thing as it gives you a fairly good taste as to what rallying is all about. Last year, standing watching Frank Bird throw the Focus around was one of the most impressive things to watch, the sheer speed and control just blew the mind. OK, this was in a full fat, Ex - factory WRC machine with every toy possible but at the same time, these SVR's, when the conditions are right can throw up a few surprises which let crews who have cars that you would never think could match the top level kit match them or even beat them. Stand outs for this would be Joe Cunningham in his old 1400 Corsa, easily beating 4wd crews on a regular basis and just as spectacular and entertaining to watch as Bird in his car that cost god knows how many times the price. As for the events, they are very well run with circuit commentary during the day so you can follow whats going on. Also, it noticeable how many families go, so any events that get not only kids but the other halfs wanting to go back cant be a bad thing. |
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28 May 2020, 06:14 (Ref:3978829) | #15 | |||
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I think that it is a very good point about Frank Bird’s performance - anyone who has seen him, and other top runners attacking the chicanes should be in no doubt that these events are not just “acceleration tests”. Thank you also for pointing out some of the giant killing performances - again, awesome commitment from the crews. |
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28 May 2020, 10:26 (Ref:3978887) | #16 | ||||||
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Forest Rallying appears to be declining (cost and availability of forest seem to be the problems) so maybe closed road events can take up some of the load from there. I assume from you "proper rallying" comments you spend a lot of time out in the forests? There's not much forest rallying left in the south (no more Tempest, Rally Of Kent long gone) so the forest events are a bit of a trek for me - any favourite events / venues you'd recommend for a trip into the woods? Quote:
Like any motorsport event the circuit rallies aren't for everyone (in the much the same way that I don't watch bike racing - it's just not something I enjoy) but they seem to fill a hole for some people and currently they're obviously viable for both organising clubs and circuits - long may that continue! Last edited by BertMk2; 28 May 2020 at 10:27. Reason: Formatting |
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28 May 2020, 18:57 (Ref:3978987) | #17 | ||
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As a Wikipedian and motorsports fan, I have been reading about the history of the different disciplines, venues and organisations. I like to learn why and how they were created and disappeared.
Attending a rally has less comforts than attending a racetrack. There's no grandstands, toilets, food carts or fan zones, although now there's a service park. These circuit rallies seem like an interesting alternative. Of course, many drivers will prefer to enter proper rallies rather than Mickey Mouse circuits. |
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28 May 2020, 20:33 (Ref:3979022) | #18 | |||
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It’s not the same as a forest rally but it is still a challenge, and the barriers can sometimes be even close than in the woods. |
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28 May 2020, 21:33 (Ref:3979030) | #19 | ||||
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29 May 2020, 14:38 (Ref:3979178) | #20 | ||
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Motorsport, even more than most sports, is about cost and value.
Like, doing a Dakar Rally is very expensive, but there's hundred of competitors that are willing to pay for it. Having decent sponsors and television coverage helps to pay for it. A circuit rally requires renting a racetrack, which may or may not be expensive. But it helps to attract paying fans, which can't be done easily in a stage rally. |
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Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
29 May 2020, 14:51 (Ref:3979181) | #21 | |||
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For the circuits it's another way of bringing in money during the "off season". When we did the rally at Brands Hatch this year there were areas around the circuit undergoing their winter improvements / maintenance - they couldn't have run a race meeting or track day given where the work was being carried out, no problem for the rally though so it turns otherwise "dead" time into paying time for the circuits. The circuit based events are great for the casual rally fan and as mentioned above some circuits have turned them into family friendly events by putting on things like fireworks as well. It's a way of getting people to watch rallying that may otherwise never see a rally. Many of the single venue events are on Ministry Of Defence sites and no spectators are allowed, forest events are by their nature more difficult to get to and have limited facilities - bobble hats compulsory The closed road events also offer a good chance to bring new spectators to the sport - the Clacton rally had plenty of people out watching a rally for the first time. |
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31 May 2020, 18:38 (Ref:3979511) | #22 | ||
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Here in Latin America it's often the other way around - local governments sometimes pay to be hosts of national championship events.
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Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
1 Jun 2020, 09:28 (Ref:3979581) | #23 | ||
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For bigger championships (like BTCC, BSB for example) the circuit pay to host the championship and make their money back from the spectators. For something like the MN Rally Championship the spectator numbers are too low for that to be viable - so the championship hires the circuit and makes it's money back from the competitor entry fees (same with club racing meetings).
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1 Jun 2020, 16:52 (Ref:3979665) | #24 | |
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I think you may be wrong on closed roads Bert
Since Clacton there have been a splurge of closed road events, ther was even supposed to be one near my neck of the woods in Stevenage this ears and at least 4 or 5 have been run in the past year at different venues. It seems where there is a will there is a way, I eman who would ever think that a rally could be held within 40 odd miles of London at the best of times, elt alone now. I tried the circuit stuff, but for me its not rallying, it is sprinting with clocks. Would rather watch other things. Sadly that time of years there is chuff all on, so I will usually end up somewhere handing Palmer over far too much money for what is on, but there we go. |
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1 Jun 2020, 19:21 (Ref:3979688) | #25 | ||||
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