Enjoy the LMES in Europe...

[Adam43]

Originally posted by JAG
GARRA is going through a boom period at the moment but as happened in BPR GT and now FIA GT, within a year or two the lesser teams will drop out.

Let us hope that the ALMS or LMES don't have a successful period then, it could mean the end

Seriously. The only thing I would say against the ALMS is that there is a lack of depth. We need more high level cars out their and I think the need for four classes perhaps shows this. Although I am unsure.

The easiest way to get new cars is for there to be more customer cars (in a 962-esque way). The odd thing is that there are a few of these cars out there. Ones that are competitive too. I would like to see a backbone of half a dozen or so cars from the same manufacturer. Ideally getting podiums and the odd win. That goes for GTS as well as LMP1.

GT has this although perhaps too much the other way, although it does provide a stable backbone if a team leaves and hopefully allow others to compete (360, Panoz...) without being dependent on the new entrants. I'm back to the start of the thread here!

With any luck the ALMS and LMES might be able to feed off each other. I would like them to remain separate and see no reason to rush to a world championship. I don't think enough teams want that.

[GT1]

I will say that if 05 is anythign like 04, I woudl say ALMS should give it up. It was silly at time in 04. P2 soemtiems stood for the number of cars entered. GTS had four cars most of the year. P1 was all Audi except for a Dyson win which they somehow managed to hold together long enough (Now there are two Audi...great)

GT was ok, but it was all Porsche for the most part, the lone 360 win not withstanding.

There are predictable races and then there are races where you can right who wins on the wall before they win it. As a longtime ALMS fan, it was just a terrible year start to end with little to no variety.

[GT1]

I think Grand Am within three years will be an all Riley or Crawford show. Its already starting. Southard has given up his Fabcar for a Riley and Mears dumped his Multimatic pretty quick for a Riley, which is now going to be run in conjunction with Mike Shank Racing, who "may" keep their Doran going too but will certianly be running the Riley.

The new teams, like TRG, Robinson, Michael Baughman, they are all going for a Crawford or a Riley. I heard a Doran has been sold to someone who may do a few races, and perhaps the Fabcar has sold one chassis, but not in the volumes of the above.

Chase may make its two or three time a year appearance, Multimatic may run thier car out of gas so they can lead a few laps and try to let customers see that the car has something to offer. Piccicho? Maybe they might supply parts so the Marshall brothers can put their car on the entry for every race, then take it off with a few days remaining for every other race.

Originally posted by JAG
I don't think there are many crossovers between the series. There is no doubt that PTG would be in the ALMS if the M3 GTR V8 was homologated, and hopefully will be back when/if the new V8 M3/M4 hits the tracks.

Being realistic, by 2006 we can expect works backed AM and Maserati GTS teams and works backed Audis in LMP1. You would hope by 2006 the new Lola etc. will have shown their true potential and will be picked up by a couple of teams.

GARRA is going through a boom period at the moment but as happened in BPR GT and now FIA GT, within a year or two the lesser teams will drop out.

['70 Mach 1]

Originally posted by tblincoe
i would love to see:

12 Hours of Sebring
1000km of Road America
1000km of Spa
1000km of Nurburgring
24 Hours of Le Mans
1000km of Silverstone
1000km of Monza
Petit Le Mans
1000km of Laguna Seca
1000km of Suzuka

I'd love to see a schedule like this as well, as long as we get proper TV coverage for all of the events ...

[extramundane]

Originally posted by tblincoe
new teams are going to GARRA because its cheaper than the ALMS thats obvious...

Startup costs may be cheaper, but if you think Wayne Taylor & Chip Ganassi are spending any less money than Champion or Dyson...

[tblincoe]

Originally posted by extramundane
Startup costs may be cheaper, but if you think Wayne Taylor & Chip Ganassi are spending any less money than Champion or Dyson...

excellent point, and thats the selling point of GARRA at the momment. i dont believe a DP is any cheaper to operate than an LMP2, its just that its cheaper to play ball in the beginning, and there is a false notion that anyone can win with what they race. give it another year of Ganassi domination and I think you will find people who are not so sure they can win in GARRA.

[Danske]

The only sure way for everyone to win a race in a season is to have only one entrant. If a series can't keep the people who aren't winning interested in participating then it will approach that condition. Call them field-fillers if you want, but every series needs competitors who keep coming back even if they don't get great results. No?

[tblincoe]

thats definitely true Danske, but a part of being a grid filler is being there for the sponsors, and once the sponsors in GARRA realize that nobody watches the races i think we will see more teams move to the ALMS. this is just a transition period, and i am as much to blame as anyone else for getting down on the series... the true test is in 2006/2007 when the ALMS has its platform set and regs steady.

[richmini99]

excellent point, and thats the selling point of GARRA at the momment. i dont believe a DP is any cheaper to operate than an LMP2

But Dyson and Champion are P1; not P2. If P2 is such I viable alternative to DPs, why doesn't the ALMS have 15 or so of them running in the series? Grand Am isn't making teams teams buy DPs; their doing it on their own. Two years ago there were only six DPs in the series. This year there were at least 16 at every race; Daytona will have at least 30 DPs at the start. Grand Am must be doing something right. I can't remember the last time I saw that many prototypes for a sportscar race in North America.

[tblincoe]

first of all, no one mentioned Dyson or Champion, so i don't know what you are talking about when you mention them being P1, not P2.

the reason why there aren't a lot of LMP2 cars right now is because its been less than a year since the class was created, and the new regs aren't even in use in the ALMS right now. plus i already mentioned the starting cost of the LMP2 is higher than the DP, and thats scaring some teams away right now.

if a team like miracle can run two cars in the ALMS next year i am supremely confident that the cost of running a DP and a LMP2 are very comparable. with the chance to run at Sebring, Petit, Road America, Laguna, Sears, Mosport, and LeMans against the best in the world for a higher starting price i think it is worth the price of admission. the only problem is getting the sponsors and teams to realize how healthy and strong the series' numbers are, and look past the fog of NASCAR.

[richmini99]

sorry again tblinco, The comment about P1 and p2 came from this post.

Startup costs may be cheaper, but if you think Wayne Taylor & Chip Ganassi are spending any less money than Champion or Dyson...

That comment sort of bleed into your post when you replied to that post with.....

excellent point

[fazzaz]

Originally posted by tblincoe
....snip....

if a team like miracle can run two cars in the ALMS next year i am supremely confident that the cost of running a DP and a LMP2 are very comparable. with the chance to run at Sebring, Petit, Road America, Laguna, Sears, Mosport, and LeMans against the best in the world for a higher starting price i think it is worth the price of admission. the only problem is getting the sponsors and teams to realize how healthy and strong the series' numbers are, and look past the fog of NASCAR.

Well, there would seem to be owners/buyers of roughly 30 DPs who don't seem to think it's worth the price of admission. I've had occasion to talk to five DP team owners in the past 30 days in some depth, and two of them are good friends. While each says slightly different things, there is a pattern: all recognize that CGR or SunTrust can spend more money or may have a bigger budget, but no team can buy a single piece that they can't. There's no "unavailable" Michelins, or super-trick engines only available to the few, or whatever. They really can measure themselves fairly against the top teams.

These guys understand rules stability better than some of the Internet experts. Yes, Pontiac engines (for example) next year will have their displacement and thus their torque curve changed, but it'll be in the same chassis, etc. In the overall picture the change is a minor one, and those chassis aren't going to be obsoleted by the rules in '06, or '07 for that matter.

They also understand that these "low-tech tube frame" chassis make economic sense. I saw two of these cars damaged badly at VIR (and I looked at them afterward); five days later both were racing at Barber. Try that with composite tubs, or consider the difference in costs between repairs. These are areas where the term "cost-effective" applies.

There's more, but it would seem to be worth considering that the guys who are actually writing checks seem to see something you don't (and it's insulting for you and others to suggest that these guys are too dumb to realize they can't win). The five owners I've talked too all find that suggestion pretty amusing, and to a person, dismiss it is typical Internet nonsense.

There's one other point you're missing. I know Roger Edmondson and have had occasion to talk to Jim France. Both understand promotion very well, and understand that if you sell tickets and don't provide a show, your spectators aren't coming back. They've focused on creating the show -- one of the advantages of a long-term strategy -- and have deliberately done little promotion. Now the show's about done: 30 or so DPs and 25 or so GTs in 2005, and it's time to start building a fan base. This is certainly a challenge, but then, so was building a grid.

You don't have to be part of that fan base; there will be some "traditional" fans who enjoy the competition, and some who aren't happy without Audis and Corvettes and whatever. Different strokes and all that. You are making a mistake, though, to think that GrandAm appeals only to team owners too dumb to know better, or to backmarker drivers, or to fans who don't know as much about "traditional" sports cars as you do.

Certainly this is just my .02, but after more than 50 years of watching sports car racing in North America, perhaps my comments have some little value. (The first sports car I ever rode in was a new Kurtis 500S/Cadillac, prepped for the Carrera Panamericana. I guess GrandAm's tube frames and V8s are just a return to my roots....)

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by fazzaz
Well, there would seem to be owners/buyers of roughly 30 DPs who don't seem to think it's worth the price of admission. I've had occasion to talk to five DP team owners in the past 30 days in some depth, and two of them are good friends. While each says slightly different things, there is a pattern: all recognize that CGR or SunTrust can spend more money or may have a bigger budget, but no team can buy a single piece that they can't. There's no "unavailable" Michelins, or super-trick engines only available to the few, or whatever. They really can measure themselves fairly against the top teams.

While true that the teams can all buy the same equipment, technically that only became codified as of July 15 (technical bulletin 2004-06). Clerical oversight? Or perhaps there was a gap that was being exploited - say, on the suspension side?

Further, the money that's not spent on equipment will find other places to go. Engineering and testing will increase, particularly as the differences become more fine. Witness NASCAR - potentially a very cheap way to go racing, but it's costing, to start, the big 3 manufacturers $125 million each to field 43 cars. That's almost $10 million per car, before sponsors have even showed up!

I've heard that testing may be strictly limited to sanctioned days. Maybe that's part of the answer. On the other hand, it freezes the developmental differences between teams as it is.

They also understand that these "low-tech tube frame" chassis make economic sense. I saw two of these cars damaged badly at VIR (and I looked at them afterward); five days later both were racing at Barber. Try that with composite tubs, or consider the difference in costs between repairs. These are areas where the term "cost-effective" applies.

True, and it's alarming that the benchmark for LMP2 has come in at such a high price. Clearly for this car to be worth buying, the returns have to be greater - or longevity of the rules has to exceed that of the DP. Since the ACO hasn't addressed the latter point, it's up to the ALMS to address the former. It's all in the marketing, and that's a dangerous game to try to take on the marketing savvy backing GA.

A brilliant stroke in GA's method was the recruitment of chassis builders. They were able to define the price, and close the market to ensure that builders would have a chance to recoup their investment over multiple sales.

There's more, but it would seem to be worth considering that the guys who are actually writing checks seem to see something you don't (and it's insulting for you and others to suggest that these guys are too dumb to realize they can't win).

So what you're saying is they know they're midfielders?

[richmini99]

Wow! Well stated fazzaz.

[fazzaz]

Originally posted by paul-collins


So what you're saying is they know they're midfielders?

Sure. Trust me, these guys can read time sheets. But there are fewer differences than you might think between Paul Mears' Riley and Chip's Rileys; look where Borkowski was running first time out in the car. Paul and Mike as a pair may not be as quick as Papis and Pruett, but look what Milka Duno did pairing with Andy Wallace. I think Milka's one of the best ads for the series in that regard; not because she's a woman, or brings Citgo, but because she proved that the pairing of a decent amateur and a professional can still win. Yes, it takes a couple of breaks, but no one's going to be laps ahead. One error, one mechanical problem with CGR or SunTrust or the Howard Boss Crawford, and there's two or three or four other cars right there. And some of them are "midfielders."

And even the absolute back-markers can still buy the same equipment as the front runners (if you're right, perhaps only 99% of what CGR has). That same team with two amateur drivers out to compete with the pros will have trouble buying a stock Audi A4 in their showroom; an R8 is out of the question.

One final thought: every team owner I've talked to, as well as quite a few drivers, have said that with GrandAm they feel that they're in on the ground floor of what may become a real success. Don't underestimate that appeal either.

[tblincoe]

Originally posted by fazzaz
Well, there would seem to be owners/buyers of roughly 30 DPs who don't seem to think it's worth the price of admission. I've had occasion to talk to five DP team owners in the past 30 days in some depth, and two of them are good friends. While each says slightly different things, there is a pattern: all recognize that CGR or SunTrust can spend more money or may have a bigger budget, but no team can buy a single piece that they can't. There's no "unavailable" Michelins, or super-trick engines only available to the few, or whatever. They really can measure themselves fairly against the top teams.

These guys understand rules stability better than some of the Internet experts. Yes, Pontiac engines (for example) next year will have their displacement and thus their torque curve changed, but it'll be in the same chassis, etc. In the overall picture the change is a minor one, and those chassis aren't going to be obsoleted by the rules in '06, or '07 for that matter.

They also understand that these "low-tech tube frame" chassis make economic sense. I saw two of these cars damaged badly at VIR (and I looked at them afterward); five days later both were racing at Barber. Try that with composite tubs, or consider the difference in costs between repairs. These are areas where the term "cost-effective" applies.

There's more, but it would seem to be worth considering that the guys who are actually writing checks seem to see something you don't (and it's insulting for you and others to suggest that these guys are too dumb to realize they can't win). The five owners I've talked too all find that suggestion pretty amusing, and to a person, dismiss it is typical Internet nonsense.

There's one other point you're missing. I know Roger Edmondson and have had occasion to talk to Jim France. Both understand promotion very well, and understand that if you sell tickets and don't provide a show, your spectators aren't coming back. They've focused on creating the show -- one of the advantages of a long-term strategy -- and have deliberately done little promotion. Now the show's about done: 30 or so DPs and 25 or so GTs in 2005, and it's time to start building a fan base. This is certainly a challenge, but then, so was building a grid.

You don't have to be part of that fan base; there will be some "traditional" fans who enjoy the competition, and some who aren't happy without Audis and Corvettes and whatever. Different strokes and all that. You are making a mistake, though, to think that GrandAm appeals only to team owners too dumb to know better, or to backmarker drivers, or to fans who don't know as much about "traditional" sports cars as you do.

Certainly this is just my .02, but after more than 50 years of watching sports car racing in North America, perhaps my comments have some little value. (The first sports car I ever rode in was a new Kurtis 500S/Cadillac, prepped for the Carrera Panamericana. I guess GrandAm's tube frames and V8s are just a return to my roots....)

you bring up good points, but what you describe is not sportscar racing as i know it, sounds more like DTM or Trans-Am to me.

sure its good to have dumbed down cars that everyone can have but i never saw something like the concept of a DP from jaguar, ford, porsche, ferrari, toyota, bentley, audi, mercedes-benz, nissan, mazda, bmw, etc. going down the mulsanne. the major part of sportscar racing is the beauty of technology mated with engineering. this means that some guys will have better equipment than others, thats a simple fact of life. the fun comes when someone like Creation or Dyson takes it to Audi using superior engineering and technical prowess. what GARRA has done is neutered sportscars by selling their souls to the devil, that is why you will never see a DP running at La Sarthe. surely costs could be controlled without creating an entirely seperate and untraditional set of regulations that alienate the other forms of sportscar racing.

as for the owners of the DPs of course they see something i dont, thats why they're in GARRA in the first place. i could go ask people like Maraj, Dyson, Field, Fehan, etc. and they will give me different opinions on that than the fellas you talked to (and it would be insulting for you to think that you are seeing something they aren't).

as for 30 DPs next year, i'll believe it when i see it. there were 16 DP entries for the season finale (and thats including the one-off 3rd Ganassi car). just where are they going to double their car count in one off-season? i would say the low 20 to mid 20s is better. which is still very respectable i must say, i just don't find the cars or platform that intersting.

but you made an excellent point at the end and its a point i am going to live by from now on. if i dont want to watch it, i dont have to. i really dont like what the series has done to sportscar racing in north america, and i dont have to watch it...

[fazzaz]

tblincoe,

Two final comments: You described your view of what sports car racing should be; any other concept means that others have sold their souls to the devil. So are you telling me that any one who does not share your taste is wrong; not simply different, but wrong? There's room for your view of sports car racing, and no other? Would you really care to debate why your tastes are good and mine are bad?

Second, you mention four names who have chosen to race in the ALMS. Dave Maraj is an enthusiast and racer, but he's also an Audi dealer. Doug Feehan is an employee of General Motors; he makes no decisions as to where or what they race (and you may not want to hear about the announcements to be made at SEMA this week). Rob Dyson and Jon Field are great; both series need more enthusiasts and sportsmen with deep pockets like these two. The problem is that racing at almost any level offers guys like Dyson and Field few returns,and there's just not an inexhaustable supply of them.

[tblincoe]

if you read all of my post you would know that in no way have i said any other concept of sportscar racing created other than traditional sportscar racing would mean that they have sold their souls to the devil. i merely said GARRA sold their souls to the (NASCAR) devil.

i also said that i dont like what GARRA has done to sportscar racing, so i dont have to watch. i thought that was an acceptable way to end it from my end, but if you really want to go into a debate on why your tastes are bad and mine are good, feel free to start.

but what it comes down to is with which type of racing the fans choose to spend their money and time, and for now we know who is winning that in A MASSIVE LANDSLIDE. if GARRA makes significant inroads in that dept. before the teams and sponsors realize what the reality of GARRA is, then i will shut my mouth.

p.s. i enjoyed your synopsis of the team principles i used as examples, the purpose of my example was to show that there are some who believe that their side is better...

[cybersdorf]

Yes I think I will enjoy the LMES. The ACO rules are not perfect but at least there is only one series - and that's the way it should be.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by fazzaz
I think Milka's one of the best ads for the series in that regard; not because she's a woman, or brings Citgo, but because she proved that the pairing of a decent amateur and a professional can still win.
...
One final thought: every team owner I've talked to, as well as quite a few drivers, have said that with GrandAm they feel that they're in on the ground floor of what may become a real success. Don't underestimate that appeal either.

Meanwhile, Forest stepped out of his car this year and proved that you can still not win with two professional drivers - regardless of how aggressive the manufacturer is in trying to catch up with the Ganassis. Of course, he's free to buy a new car next year - but then the "rules stability" hasn't helped those who are now saddled with uncompetitive machinery, has it? And cost containment is pretty hollow if you have to buy a new car rather than develop what you've already paid for.

Multimatic have had difficulty in getting changes approved - which would only serve to help the owners of the four cars they've sold to join the pack. Seeing as how Mears were able to jump into a brand new car and jump from backmarker to nipping the heels of the leaders, we can infer that the initial run of machinery is now surpassed by Crawford and Riley. So will GA allow the manufacturers to adjust their cars for the sake of competition?

I don't know, it seems to me that if the cars are truly frozen in that way, it hurts the early adopters of the series, who bought Fabcar, Multimatic or Doran chassis. I'd hope that for the sake of variety the cars will be allowed some mods.

I certainly see the appeal of running mid-pack when it's a meaningful one. Ganassi may add cachet to the series, but it's the depth that makes the fun for the owners who know they won't win.

[Danske]

Originally posted by paul-collins
Meanwhile, Forest stepped out of his car this year and proved that you can still not win with two professional drivers - regardless of how aggressive the manufacturer is in trying to catch up with the Ganassis.

Hey now, the #54 with Borcheller and Fittipaldi has been at least a podium car on occasion but for some bad breaks. They were second at the Glen before the tire switch by the #27 and #6 paid off for them, and third at Barber, running faster than the #01 and close to the #4, before Fittipaldi had his shunt. The Bell Doran isn't a complete boat anchor.

[paul-collins]

"But for some bad breaks"

Sometimes you make your own luck. Drivers have been known to push and lose it all when they can't get it done while driving within the capabilities of the car. (An example would be JJ driving the Champion Audi at Mosport, and he clearly overdrove the front tires; the failure was entirely predictable.)