The RS Spyder "Gentleman" story

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by JAG

If anything was learned from that era, it was to proceed with caution when a new, not in the spirit, car arrives on the scene, i.e. MC12/RS Spyder.

The RS Spyder is a customer chassis in a similar vein to the 956/962 and should be applauded!! Zytek have stepped up to the plate and developed a car that is just as capable - now just need Lola and the others to follow suite.....which the new P2 coupe looks like it could!!

Following your reasoning the P2 Lola Coupe should fall foul of the same regs!!

To repeat there is no real evidence that a privateer RS will destroy the opposition...will an 07 RS be quicker than an 05 Lola...yes and you would be incredibly naieve to think otherwise.....but i think you are not giving the professional teams in the LMS enough credit as they have allready realised they need new cars to meet this challenge. Will those running Pilbeams and Luccinis suffer - yes probably but those cars have never been truly good enough imo.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Big differance ..... If Charlie Chan bought an RS Spyder , doesnt mean its like a Penske Spyder !!! The only people with factory support for the Spyder is Dyson and Penske afaik .

So , you think its ok to penalise the Porsche , but not the Zytek 07S2 ?

We have seen just how quick a Zytek is .....

Zytek is a complete package just like the Porsche , so it should be penalised too .

No doubt you will respond to this sanctimonious hyperbole !!!

If the Zytek is a full works package , just like the Porsche , and has been seen bashing in the laps very quickly indeed , why should it not be penalised ?

So this is saying that Zytek has as much ability to build and fine tune a car on their own private track and wind tunnel and has an engineering team and computer facilities etc etc etc as Porsche does?! So it is being suggested that a level playing field between the two examples given exsists in these catagories? And it is not possible or likely that Porsche would assist via the back door to help promote or ensure their products reputation? Really, there is no difference here? Simply amazing! I am not denigrating Zytek in this. It is merely an observation of the disparity in the two entities ability to bring forth resources to bear on these cars.

L.P.

[Bob Riebe]

This thread is fascinating as it shows very plainly how those who watch racing view the rules and racing is diametrically opposed manners.

One can only assume that such a void also exists among groups of racers and rules makers.

This thread has said little, but explains much.

Bob

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

Unbelievable, 7 pages of sanctimonious hyperbole!

Believe me, I've no time for Peter, but in this case he is absolutely correct.

If people cannot see the very clear difference between a VERY expensive, factory developed RS Spyder and the Lola's, Zyteks etc that have made up the field, then what can I say..........

The LMS, particularly the P2 class, is built on privateers and pro-am driver line-ups The Porsche teams aren't being handicapped, they're being asked to follow the lead of other front running teams, at least until we get a better handle of each cars respective performance.


Sportscar Analytics


The above statement just shows how this minor issue has been hyped out of all proportion and, IMO, is simply being used by some of our friends from across the pond as a reason to bash the LMS, as they now believe the series is a growing threat to the ALMS (I don't).

Personally I'm was far more concerned with IMSA's NASCAR like performance balancing, particularly the Aston vs GM GT1 battle in 2006, for me, that was a new low point for the credibilty of ACO racing.

Just because IMSA stumbled across a nice P1 vs P2 balance, that hid from view the series' embarrassing lack of P1 competition, does not mean this policy should be adopted in the LMS, were P1 and P2 not only have plentiful entries, they're also entirely seperate classes.

I don't know how long some have been watching this sport, I started around '88, I watched Group C crash and burn, then the barren years with zero major sportscar racing other than Le Mans.

BPR rose out of the ashes and was flying high, then Porsche came along with the 911 GT1, it was technically legal, but certainly against the unwritten spirit. Some, including myyself, wanted to see this car race, it was accepted, but after a couple of races it became clear the rest of the GT1 field was obsolete, 30+ cars ready for the scrap heap!

If anything was learned from that era, it was to proceed with caution when a new, not in the spirit, car arrives on the scene, i.e. MC12/RS Spyder.

If the worst sportscar purist's can ***** and moan about is forcing an RS Spyder P2 team to run a Pro-Am driving squad, well, you don't realise how good you've got it!

I would agree!

L.P.

[Hugewally]

So then you also don't want to see an individual team race at a 100% level?

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

So this is saying that Zytek has as much ability to build and fine tune a car on their own private track and wind tunnel and has an engineering team and computer facilities etc etc etc as Porsche does?! So it is being suggested that a level playing field between the two examples given exsists in these catagories? And it is not possible or likely that Porsche would assist via the back door to help promote or ensure their products reputation? Really, there is no difference here? Simply amazing! I am not denigrating Zytek in this. It is merely an observation of the disparity in the two entities ability to bring forth resources to bear on these cars.

L.P.

This has nothing to do with the level of support that Porsche MIGHT give a European customer car.

[canam]

Originally Posted by TWK

But, you want me to buy an expensive ticket for your rich guys club race.

You have a choice. Like the LMS promoters on this issue, no one is forcing you to do anything. If that is the way you feel about it, don't come.

I care about the health of the industry so that we don't have situations where sportscar racing collapses as it has done many times in the past. I fully agree with P Peter. In fact, he should apply this to the entire P2 grid as it would be a tru leveller.

Rich guys: Presume you must be talking about R Penske, R Dyson, D Dayton, D. Maraj, Mr Petersen, Mr (Flying Lizards) etc etc etc...

In respect of the Porsche not getting a break. Well, all P2s have a break on the ACO weights...so as to compete with the R10 in the ALMS.

[Hugewally]

Why then shouldn't this 'rule' be applied to all four classes if you want the field leveled, instead of just one team in one class?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

So then you also don't want to see an individual team race at a 100% level?This has nothing to do with the level of support that Porsche MIGHT give a European customer car.

It can be twisted and manipulated anywhich way! But do not put someone else's agenda in my mouth!!! If there is a dispute with what I stated then dispute it but do not put words in my mouth!! This is about Porsche vs the ACO and P-2,..........not me!

L.P.

[Hugewally]

Oh geez, get over yourself already, you're the one who implied it...

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

Oh geez, get over yourself already, you're the one who implied it...

I think not! Silence is not the order of the day anymore. Those tactics will no longer be shrugged off.

L.P.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

So this is saying that Zytek has as much ability to build and fine tune a car on their own private track and wind tunnel and has an engineering team and computer facilities etc etc etc as Porsche does?! So it is being suggested that a level playing field between the two examples given exsists in these catagories? And it is not possible or likely that Porsche would assist via the back door to help promote or ensure their products reputation? Really, there is no difference here? Simply amazing! I am not denigrating Zytek in this. It is merely an observation of the disparity in the two entities ability to bring forth resources to bear on these cars.

L.P.

Gee, I guess i misread that...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by TWK

But, you want me to buy an expensive ticket for your rich guys club race. Nope, I don't watch such contrivences. (Besides, I can drive 14 miles from my front door and see rich guys in much nicer cars, some of the most beautiful historic racers ever, and they don't pretend to fool me by calling it a sport. If I go to a race, I want to watch a race of the best.

Mr. Peter can do what he wants, but it is a little ridiculous to call this a real sport, if he's going to say, "you have to put a bad driver in your car to make it less competitive." What a flippin' joke.

Are you serious, after the countless performance balancing the ALMS has done, not onl;y between cars in the same class, but balancing P1 and P2!

all this fuss because a Porsche P2 team has been asked to follow the spirit of the class like RML, Barazi etc.....who aren't exactly slouches.

[SebringMG]

Ah maybe Embassy should be made to follow those same 'rules' themselves then ?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A break in the ALMS? How so?

The ALMS runs to IMSA rules. The rules for LMP2 according to IMSA for ALL LMP2 cars will have them run at 800kg. It isn't a break, when the rules apply evenly amongst all entrants, within a category.

I hope that no Mazda engined cars enter the LMS... I mean this is a factory developed powerplant. So, perhaps Mazda powered cars will be driven by 1.5 pro drivers, given the chassis isn't factory developed.

Really, this rule to penalize owners of the Spyder is no better than any of the Corvette and Aston silliness.

IMO, IMSA only care about Porsche/Acura putting up a fight with Audi, they're balancing P1 and P2, that's why they won't implement the full 825kg.

Now, if they had a dozen P1's and a dozen privateer P2's (Lolas, Zyteks etc.), and Porsche came on the scene, don't you think IMSA would run P2's at 825kg, and implement Spyder specific penalties (or help the P2 competition) to prevent a mass P2 exodus?

I find it laughable such a fuss can be generated by requiring a privateer P2 team to run a pro-am line-up, like much of the competition, yet we can brush aside the fact IMSA is screwing with the P1/P2 class differences to cover for the lack of P1 competition.

[SebringMG]

Given the problems Dyson have had making the RS quick i doubt we will see any of them in the LMS on the pace for a while......remember Dyson have been 2-3 secs slower than Penske!!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The RS Spyder is a customer chassis in a similar vein to the 956/962 and should be applauded!! Zytek have stepped up to the plate and developed a car that is just as capable - now just need Lola and the others to follow suite.....which the new P2 coupe looks like it could!!

Following your reasoning the P2 Lola Coupe should fall foul of the same regs!!

To repeat there is no real evidence that a privateer RS will destroy the opposition...will an 07 RS be quicker than an 05 Lola...yes and you would be incredibly naieve to think otherwise.....but i think you are not giving the professional teams in the LMS enough credit as they have allready realised they need new cars to meet this challenge. Will those running Pilbeams and Luccinis suffer - yes probably but those cars have never been truly good enough imo.

Their was no evidence the 911 GT1 would crush the competition, afterall it was just a mid-engined 911, pity it killed a thriving GT1 class, too bad.

As I say, RML have been a front running P2 team for 3 years, with a pro-am driver lin-up, the LMS aren't hobbling the RS Spyder with 100kg of ballast.

Haven't we learn't from past, bad experiences, why be so foolhardy as to risk destroying a class for what exactly?

If a team wishes to spend huge bucks, with no restrictions, go to P1, if you run in P2 expect action to be taken to protect the privateer field.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The RS Spyder is a customer chassis in a similar vein to the 956/962 and should be applauded!! Zytek have stepped up to the plate and developed a car that is just as capable - now just need Lola and the others to follow suite.....which the new P2 coupe looks like it could!!

Following your reasoning the P2 Lola Coupe should fall foul of the same regs!!

To repeat there is no real evidence that a privateer RS will destroy the opposition...will an 07 RS be quicker than an 05 Lola...yes and you would be incredibly naieve to think otherwise.....but i think you are not giving the professional teams in the LMS enough credit as they have allready realised they need new cars to meet this challenge. Will those running Pilbeams and Luccinis suffer - yes probably but those cars have never been truly good enough imo.

Their was no evidence the 911 GT1 would crush the competition, afterall it was just a mid-engined 911, pity it killed a thriving GT1 class, too bad.

As I say, RML have been a front running P2 team for 3 years, with a pro-am driver lin-up, the LMS aren't hobbling the RS Spyder with 100kg of ballast.

Haven't we learn't from past, bad experiences, why be so foolhardy as to risk destroying a class for what exactly?

If a team wishes to spend huge bucks, with no restrictions, go to P1, if you run in P2 expect action to be taken to protect the privateer field.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Ah maybe Embassy should be made to follow those same 'rules' themselves then ?

Do Embassy have a massive road car manufactuer behind them, or are they in the same spirit as Radical or Lola? In fact even Embassy themselves have said their ultimate goal is P1, they aren't a typical P2 team.

Why then shouldn't this 'rule' be applied to all four classes if you want the field leveled, instead of just one team in one class?

P1 is free, do what you want, GT1 is open to manufactuer's, but no one wishes to race.

GT2 is a little different from P2, as 90% of cars are from major manufactuer's, and freely available to purchase. P2 is unique as specialist racecar manufactuers need to be protected, when inevitably the manufactuers take their ball home. If for example Pecscarolo are eventually forced out of P1 due to manufactuer competition, do we really wan to see them face upto Porsche and Acura in P2?

[SebringMG]

Look i have no problem with an official rule that defines P2 as having a pro-am lineup - i just think that hindering someone based on chassis choice is wrong.

Lola are a specialist manufacturer and NOT in the same spirit as Radical in the slightest, Lola have the sam facilities as POrsche fundamentally - the RS presumably has to show a profit as a programme like \Lola......

Does the RS sound the death knell for Pilbeam, Luccini - yes probably - but then they were not very well developed anyway - the Zytek price / performance would have killed them off anyway.

Embassy want to win - they believe thier route gives them the best chance of doing so - certainly more of a preofessional effort than Radical ever managed right up there with Lola and Zytek.

Why race in P1 against the factory teams when they obviously don't have enough money for that ?

[Hugewally]

Will those than run Pilbeams & Luccinis be required to only run pro drivers?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

Will those than run Pilbeams & Luccinis be required to only run pro drivers?

I guess this debate has run it's course.

God forbid a P2 team having to run pro-am drivers.............but who cares if P2's are dominant in the ALMS, not running to current ACO regs for half a season, and potentially, all of 2008.

[paul-collins]

The argument about "spirit of the rules" has been played out over may threads, and I can see we're no further along in resolving it.

Thread closed.