Brabham BT36

[ROGER JORDAN]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Nothing crazy about fitting Repco V8s into Brabhams - happened on several occasions back in the day.



Tony Griffiths in his BT29X complete with Repco V8 - Doune 1971

Steve are you certain this is a 29X ? surely it`s BT35X-3 (I was very fortunate to drive this car for a few years sadly not with the fabulous Repco but Twincam and later Rover V8)
Best regards Roger

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by ROGER JORDAN

Steve are you certain this is a 29X ? surely it`s BT35X-3 (I was very fortunate to drive this car for a few years sadly not with the fabulous Repco but Twincam and later Rover V8)
Best regards Roger

Correct, it is BT35X-3 complete with Repco V8 - no idea why I posted it as BT29X - must be the painkillers!

[K.Wisskirchen]

Hi

I spoke to an old friend of english cars (Lotus), and he told me that racecars where sometimes delivered not as complete cars, but as assembly-kits for less money because of special tax in GB and costs of work. The cars where delivered in boxes as spare parts.
But it was forbidden to give them numbers or/and papers.

That can mean, that more cars existed in the past as known today, when every car needs name and number.

I wonder by myself that it seems to look that there where no replacement-cars or chassis for any team or driver. Is this right? Haven't they any replacement-chassis when they went racing in oversea?

Klaus

[Andrew Fellowes]

My records suggest the AM number has been confused with the chassis number.
I dont have many BT35 AM numbers but most numbers either side of AM 71-20 are BT35s.

There is still one BT36 missing but the AM number would be >40 and so I would be reasonably confident this is a BT35 and with a low chassis number in the teens or early 20's

Andrew

[driftwood]

the comment about race cars being sold incomplete is new one on me
are you sire the guy i snot getting confused with road cars we call kit cars that is something that was sold with different taxation charge and not complet built car at factory
i can see factory sending car abroad in kit from for ease of transportation but generally the factory would assemble the car so it was rolling chassis or even fit the motor so it was complete car ready to run

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

the comment about race cars being sold incomplete is new one on me
are you sire the guy i snot getting confused with road cars we call kit cars that is something that was sold with different taxation charge and not complet built car at factory
i can see factory sending car abroad in kit from for ease of transportation but generally the factory would assemble the car so it was rolling chassis or even fit the motor so it was complete car ready to run

McLaren sold the M10A and M10B as kits. They came as a Rolling chassis with the option of having just the gearbox or complete with engine & gearbox. However you could only buy them through approved suppliers who then assembled them. This was a route favoured by the hillclimb competitors as it meant they could customise the cars prior to delivery and also fit bigger capacity engines.

I agree with Drifty (that's twice this month!) that the taxation issue is to do with roadgoing cars such as the Lotus 7 rather than racing cars.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by K.Wisskirchen

Hi

I spoke to an old friend of english cars (Lotus), and he told me that racecars where sometimes delivered not as complete cars, but as assembly-kits for less money because of special tax in GB and costs of work. The cars where delivered in boxes as spare parts.
But it was forbidden to give them numbers or/and papers.

That can mean, that more cars existed in the past as known today, when every car needs name and number.

I wonder by myself that it seems to look that there where no replacement-cars or chassis for any team or driver. Is this right? Haven't they any replacement-chassis when they went racing in oversea?

Klaus

Klaus
You are part right here: there were some countries where import duty was very high that cars were imported to some owners - not as a general rule - as kits so that they could be described as spares. This certainly happened with South Africa in the 1970s, and I think with some US owners. However, I think most of those cars had factory build numbers and records [after all the chassis plate could always be sent in the post later!] I don't know how much Europe was affected by this as tariffs were maybe lower.

I don't think this was a consequence of particular tax in Britain. There was a tax which kit cars could get round for UK owners but only for road cars.

[driftwood]

Steve be careful i may have you sectioned under the mental health act if you keep agreeing with me-its becoming a bit disconcerting!

Although a car may be sent overseas in pieces the factory would have sold it as a car and assigned it a plate with build sequence number and an original bill of sale for their records- what the customer wanted to do is either down to them or a separate instruction and dealt with as the factory felt fit

[K.Wisskirchen]

It only sounds good, because maybe it was a way to get it cheaper. And if there was an "official" car for racing, nobody could control with chassis was used. That's what I thought.

But what's about the replacement-chassis? Have they exist like today? I think it was no satisfaction to travel half around the world, have an accident in practice, an go home with a pack of scap without having raced.

@ Andrew

yes, I know about your records of AM-numbers. As you know, has BT36-3 No. AM71-17. I was not sure that this frame was original, up to phoning to Bernd Terbeck end of last year. He had seen the car at "Essener Motorshow" some years before, and looked for a special mark on the frame. It was on a thin tube in the front section, and from his accident in Hockenheim. So he could identfy his "old" chassis.
My father's car has this mark. So I must be sure that the chassis is original. Who else can better confirm it than Bernd Terbeck? I send you a photo of the mark on the tube.
And so I had the idea of AM71-20 as one of nearer following BT36. Knowing the AM-No. of two early BT35 it can make sense.

Klaus

[driftwood]

The factory would not sell car cheaper -it would sell car for export without UK tax and receiv export shipping documents form the feight company/ Douane

If a car was crashed in the 70-73 seasons they would order new chassis from factory
maybe they made note in records of new chassis being sold to a customer or even against a certain car chassis number or maybe they aske d for old chassis to be returned so they can destroy old chassis and cut out the AM number tube refit to new chassis?
Only way you will know is IF member of the fabrication team is alive today to ask or factory files can be inspected but i think it was another day another dollar lets make parts sell them who gives a sht about chassis records for race car that is now sold

[K.Wisskirchen]

"but i think it was another day another dollar lets make parts sell them who gives a sht about chassis records for race car that is now sold"

that's what I believe too.

[driftwood]

If yiu where at van deimen or Swift or dallara today selling cars and orders come in for new chassis it would be a simple case of Herr Schmidt wants new chassis when will it be ready to send to him not oh dear i see chassis 22 has been crashed

maybe the team mechanic can tell you 1 or 2 years later he had to renew chassis when Mr Crashalot drove in his team and 4 times he repaired the chassis with chewing gum and his bare in hands in the rain soaked paddock

Basically no one bothered to keep records and IF the race journalist was there made a note and the autosport magazine printed the info it gave some creedence to a cars history

[rorym]

I have not read the whole thread but can anyone tell me where Mark Hulsts' BT36 Dolphin fits in?..If at all?
Thanks
R

[Andrew Fellowes]

Don Baker brought a BT30 chassis back from the UK and had it copied.

During their earlier years these copies got incorrectly called BT36s. They have outboard brakes and fixed top rear chassis members same as a BT30.

[Bryan Miller]

Mark Hulst's car is correctly in the CAMS papers described as Brabham/Dolphin BT36 .
I found the car nth. of Brisbane about 15 years ago and restored car , Mark's car is the 3rd. of the 3 Don Baker built in Australia and the only car of the 3 to be logbooked in period as a Brabham BT36 [ shouldn't have been done , but it was ].
The other two were logbooked as Dolphin's .
When papers were applied for it became a real problem as under CAMS rules the car is to be logbooked as per period , however it was then obvious the car could not be called simply a Brabham BT 36 , so I suggested a compromise which was accepted.

[rorym]

Thanks Bryan..are the other 2 of Dons copies still alive?
Rory

[rorym]

Obviously it doe not fit as a real BT36 but do these 3 fit anywhere or are just seen as clones/replicas?
Thanks for the info.
Rory

[Bryan Miller]

Yes,

They both are still alive .
One in Melbourne has never been the subject of CAMS paperwork application , the other was , then raced , then accident damaged and I haven't heard of it for many years , should be somewhere in the southern suburbs of Sydney.
Someone asked me about it the other day , I had nearly forgotten what had happened to it.
Bryan Miller.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by rorym

Obviously it doe not fit as a real BT36 but do these 3 fit anywhere or are just seen as clones/replicas?
Rory

I think they are cars (Dolphins) in their own right having been built to race in the early 70s.

[allenbrown]

I agree. They are not clones or replicas; they are entirely genuine and authentic Dolphins.

[Bryan Miller]

The three cars have very real Australian histories and all deserve to be out and about .
Mark Hulst's car was even run in the Peter Stuyvestant Series in NZ in 1978 driven by Peter Larner fitted with a Cosworth BDD .
All three at one time or another ran in Australian F2 Series races including the Van Heusen Series for F2 , the Melb. car driven by Tony Stewart and the Sydney car by current historic competitor Chris Farrell.
I think both the above cars were logbooked as Dolphin 732 s , for 1973 / F2.

[rorym]

Very interesting..I see Mark here a lot at meetings..lovely car..fast too..probably the closest I would ever come to owning a BT36. haha
Thanks for the info guys, very informative thread this one.
R

[rorym]

Here is Mark in the BT36 Dolphin at Noosa 2008.
R

[driftwood]

out of curiosity what would the"market " value be for a pukka BT36 and a dolphin today?

I know if we went to build a new car of each example from scratch the cost will be the same

[K.Wisskirchen]

Hello together,

can this be BT36-14? I found it, looking for "Brabham" at Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqWonAcjgQ&NR=1

Klaus