|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
15 Apr 2010, 18:47 (Ref:2673283) | #351 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,618
|
Quote:
How about a Le Mans Americas Cup with four races: PLM in October, the South American races in Novemeber and/or December, and Sebring in March? The United States has 310 million people and a GDP of US$ 14 trillion (14 million million). Germany + UK + France + Italy + Spain also have 310 million people and a GDP of US$ 12 trillion. So one could say that both sides of the North Atlantic are more or less equal... Last edited by NaBUru38; 15 Apr 2010 at 18:48. Reason: Who taught me to count? I'll hit'em! |
|||
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
15 Apr 2010, 19:24 (Ref:2673301) | #352 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
Of course, now, the LMS has only two of those five European nations on its schedule, and I don't think Portugal, Belgium, and Hungary quite equal Germany, Italy, and Spain.
Even if Ferrari had to give away 50k tickets, it would be worth it to have an LMS race with a respectable crowd at Monza. If it was my call on the LMIC, I'd do seven races: 1. Sebring 12hr 2. Monza 1000km 3. Spa 1000km 4. Road America 500 5. Silverstone 1000km 6. Petit Le Mans 7. Autopolis 1000km (best venue I can think of after Suzuka) I think if we want even a chance of the Asian round being at Suzuka, it would have to be ahead of Sebring in the calendar year. |
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
15 Apr 2010, 19:31 (Ref:2673311) | #353 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 406
|
Quote:
It may be as you say, fatal to ALMS in current economic climate but if that is the case then ALMS must surely be on it's last legs anyway in it's current format, otherwise, it would be able to live through this and maybe even use it to it's benefit! I say again, I do not think manufacturers want to race completely in LMS or ALMS, unless they are selling and supporting privateer teams of course, so not sure how this can be detrimental in short term when they are not there anyway (no Porsche LMP, no Audi, no Acura, no Peugeot) and so limited if at all marketing $ from these sources. But there is interest in ILMC, as they were when Don Panoz started ALMS in 1998 at Petit Le Mans, the build it and they will come attitude. As you say economic times are very strained in the USA, more so than Europe and certainly more so that Asia, countries such as Australia or Brazil, so if I was Mr budget controller for a international car company and I see that China and many other markets are up and generally growing fast and US is massively down and I have to balance ROI, where would I go? My opinion is it is a good thing to keep manufacturers and not go elsewhere and allows money to be spent into the championships, Manufacturers using it with their sponsors for PR and marketing which all allows fans like us to see on TV or live some great races. |
||
|
15 Apr 2010, 19:35 (Ref:2673314) | #354 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 406
|
Quote:
Suzuka or Fuji are only Japanese race tracks in reality for this size of grid. I think 2010 will be China. $$$ |
||
|
15 Apr 2010, 22:42 (Ref:2673384) | #355 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
Autopolis hosted a round of the Japanese SuperGT series last year (2009), and certainly looks to be active based on their official website. Its current owner is Kawasaki, which purchased the track in 2005.
It is an FIA Grade 2 circuit; it was Grade 1 standard 20 years when it was built. The track is the required 12m wide for the entire 2.904-mile lap, and 15m wide on the start/finish straight, which is 902m (~2,960ft) long. The lap is deceptively quick. Turns 1, 3, and 12 are probably 3rd gear (medium-speed) for an LMP. Turns 6 and 11 are probably 2nd gear (slow-speed) in an LMP. Turns 2, 4-5, 7-10, and 13-19 are probably 4th gear and up in an LMP. The one World Championship race Autopolis hosted was the final round of the 1991 World Sportcar Championship. Teo Fabi set the pole in a Jaguar XJR-14 at a 1L27.188 (119.907mph average), and Yannick Dalmas set fastest lap in a Peugeot 905B at a 1:30.615 (115.372mph average). Suzuka simply won't happen at the end of the year, as that sort of date puts it too close to the F1 Japanese GP for Bernie's liking. And Fuji isn't that great anymore, since the F1 remodel. Also, despite having that 1475m front straight, and a few other quick sections, Fuji is now slower than Autopolis. The LMP lap record was set in 2007 at a 1:31.065 (112.074mph average). Yes, I know they're looking at China, but Shanghai isn't going to be looking to pay another sanction fee, and will charge an arm and a leg if the AsLMS/LMIC tries to rent the place out. Zhuhai is a possibility, but I don't know how the ACO feels about that circuit, and a number of the people here don't seem to like that track very much. So, about the only other option I see is to partner with the DTM at that Shanghai street circuit event planned for the end of October/beginning of November. Aside from all that, it doesn't sound like China's building bubble can't last a whole lot longer. And what they're building is itself unsustainable as well. When the average (mean) earnings for an urban couple is less than $10,000 per annum, and what is being built are 1,000-1,100sq-ft, $150,000-$165,000 condo units in high-rises, and high-end office buildings, something has to give eventually. Actually, the median income would be a more accurate measure, and that amount will be even less than the mean. Sorry, to hi-jack things like this, but I wanted to set some things straight, and point out a potentially critical flaw in what is, theoretically, the ACO's plan for Asia at present. |
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
16 Apr 2010, 00:21 (Ref:2673410) | #356 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,618
|
There's another problem with the eventual Japanese race: winter. February or early March would be freezing, I guess, and April is to deep into the American and European seasons. Just like Canadian races, the best weather for a round in Japan is in the middle of the northern summer, which is also the middle of both seasons.
The Chinese mean income shouldn't be that important for a motorsport race near a huge city. Spectators will be middle or high class, and Shanghai surely has plenty. Fees do matter. It depends of whether the track owners want one major race per year or one per month. |
||
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
16 Apr 2010, 02:37 (Ref:2673424) | #357 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,793
|
Quote:
Seriously though, RA has had huge issues with its promotion and Mosport is consistently an attendance leader for ALMS sprint races. |
|||
|
16 Apr 2010, 02:43 (Ref:2673426) | #358 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
The income issue becomes important when, not if, the **** hits the fan, and the building frenzy grinds to a halt because capacity far outstrips any possible demand for decades to come. When that happens, the Chinese government is going to be looking for money to spend on far more critical things than motorsport. So, I wouldn't have a great deal of confidence in the real longevity of any Chinese round that might come out of the woodwork in the current climate.
Heck, even with the building craze still going, China wants out of the F1 contract early, because of how much they're losing paying the annual sanction fee, and how much they've already lost on the track construction. Shanghai can't really pay for itself because of the sanction fee, and the fact that rents for anyone else to use it are so high that next to nobody else uses the place. Cmk, with the inter-class traffic as it is, I'm concerned enough already with what could go wrong this year at Mosport with a regular ALMS round. And before you talk about Lime Rock cramming in ~30 cars, remember that the turns at Mosport are quite a bit faster and more line sensitive. The Downhill is the fastest turn at Lime Rock (~130-140mph for LMPs). At Mosport, Turns 1, 2, 4, and 6-8 are all faster than that, and Turn 9 is close to that sort of speed as well. It's more likely that something goes wrong at Mosport than Road America, and Mosport already has a major black mark in international sportscar racing from the Manfred Winkelhock crash in 1985, and the next time the WSC returned to Canada, this time at Montreal in 1990, there was the whole Jesus Pareja/manhole cover incident. Another reason that I chose Elkhart Lake though, was timing. Mosport is a week closer to Silverstone, and July/August in the ALMS is tightly packed enough as it is without trying to perhaps move Mosport back a week. Last edited by Purist; 16 Apr 2010 at 02:54. |
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
16 Apr 2010, 03:00 (Ref:2673431) | #359 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,793
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
16 Apr 2010, 05:45 (Ref:2673448) | #360 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
We will have to see how the challenge classes pan out at Mosport. However, if they do work, the ALMS is NOT going to be keen to drop those teams/cars from the 'main event" for the purposes of the LMIC. The teams in those classes definitely wouldn't appreciate getting the shaft, even if it is for just one race.
Mosport used to be earlier in the Summer, with its greater proximity to Le Mans on the calendar making it less desirable for this sort of thing. Since it has assumed its current position, however, Road America and Mid Ohio have been moved up right behind it, and they're supposed to be adding Sears Point to next year's schedule, which puts an even bigger squeeze on July/August in the ALMS, unless they put Sonoma in May. Of course, you also have to consider the chance of OKC being added to the post Le Mans glut of races here in the States. And just for the heck of it, I crunched the numbers. With the standard sprint race format, Mosport can have up to 41 cars for an ALMS event. In the case of a more standard endurance race, this number is raised to 46. For Road America, the numbers are 57 and 64, but I'd bet the FIA would be a lot more willing to grant Road America some leeway on those maxima than is likely to be the case with Mosport. Apart from all of that, yes, Mosport has been upgraded since 1985, but bad memories tend to have VERY long lives. Also, do you recall that the BMW factory refused to run at Mosport in 1999, because they considered that circuit too dangerous? There's no guarantee that something like that won't happen again with someone like Peugeot or Aston Martin, who have not raced at Mosport in a very long time, if ever. A withdrawal like that certainly wouldn't be a good thing, if it happened. |
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
16 Apr 2010, 06:12 (Ref:2673453) | #361 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 406
|
Quote:
Like your other tracks though. |
||
|
16 Apr 2010, 08:17 (Ref:2673503) | #362 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 435
|
Quote:
I'd like to see the ALMS expand a little, there are some great tracks in South American and mexico, but is the money there? |
|||
|
16 Apr 2010, 15:00 (Ref:2673697) | #363 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
|
Lola T70, except for paving more of the paddock, how old are the facilities at Mosport? Most North American road courses don't have enough garages to handle a full ALMS field, if they have garages at all; by international terms, most of them are considered rather out of the way as well. F1 chose Phoenix in 1989 partially because they thought Laguna Seca had the same problems you just listed for Autopolis.
A 4-6 hour train ride to Autopolis doesn't sound so bad, especially when the nearest ALMS race (Road America) is more than twice that in drive time. From some information I picked up a couple nights ago, it sounds like things will go south with Chinese real-estate in as little as 12-18 months. So, that's what, one or two races the ACO MIGHT get pulled off before things sour? One of the tricky things is that China doesn't look at economic growth from a methods-first approach, but from the notion that, "I have to do whatever is necessary to hit my growth quota for the year." Right now, that "quota" seems to be roughly 9%. That sort of approach definitely opens the door to some risky "capitalist" practices. |
||
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
16 Apr 2010, 17:55 (Ref:2673800) | #364 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 406
|
Quote:
I will bow to your knowledge on the future of China but not sure the ACO will as car manufacturers are all having increased sales in that region. |
||
|
16 Apr 2010, 18:02 (Ref:2673805) | #365 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,618
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
23 Apr 2010, 13:05 (Ref:2678416) | #366 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,926
|
According to Endurance Info, Peugeot has stated an intent to do the LMIC this year.
|
||
|
23 Apr 2010, 14:02 (Ref:2678442) | #367 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,102
|
Quote:
Link (in English on Endurance-Info.com) Those post Le Mans blues will be offset by the mouthwatering prospect of the Peugeot/Audi battle being resumed at Silverstone 3 months later. Can't wait! |
||
|
23 Apr 2010, 14:05 (Ref:2678447) | #368 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,354
|
Quote:
No if we can just bring in a couple more manufacturers........ |
|||
|
23 Apr 2010, 14:06 (Ref:2678449) | #369 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,488
|
|||
|
23 Apr 2010, 14:08 (Ref:2678452) | #370 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,270
|
|||
__________________
When in doubt? C4. |
23 Apr 2010, 14:24 (Ref:2678467) | #371 | |
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,102
|
My name may be James, but my second name is not May!
Mind you, since we're already off topic, a shoot out around the Top Gear test track between the R15+ and 908 with Nishy and Quick Nic at the wheel might be fun........and good publicity! |
|
|
23 Apr 2010, 14:58 (Ref:2678488) | #372 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,834
|
McStig and Msr. Le Stigs French Cousin???
Pug news on Pug website. Silverstone, Petit LM, China. |
||
__________________
Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
23 Apr 2010, 15:03 (Ref:2678492) | #373 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,270
|
Isn't Le Stig's French Cousin actually messr. Sarrazin?
|
||
__________________
When in doubt? C4. |
23 Apr 2010, 17:40 (Ref:2678595) | #374 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,763
|
Can someone please remind me what rounds constitute the LMIC ?
|
||
|
23 Apr 2010, 17:52 (Ref:2678606) | #375 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,759
|
Petit Le Mans
Silverstone China (track tba) |
||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Le Mans Series 2010 | HORNDAWG | ACO Regulated Series | 1144 | 21 Sep 2010 14:08 |
2010 Le Mans Classic | john ruston | Historic Racing Today | 487 | 25 Aug 2010 19:35 |
[LM24 Race] Le Mans 2010 - Who's going? | Craig | 24 Heures du Mans | 416 | 10 Jun 2010 22:11 |
[LM24] Changes to facilities at Le Mans 2010 | GT6 | 24 Heures du Mans | 32 | 3 Dec 2009 20:28 |
LM Intercontinental Cup (thread closed) | Gingers4Justice | Sportscar & GT Racing | 32 | 1 Sep 2009 15:51 |