Help me

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by Alexander86

I made my estimations by looking at top level tracks.
Example: Circuit de Catalunya (Barcelona, Spanish F1 GP). The straight is over 1km long, but the gravel trap (before the tarmac run off was added) is only between 60 and 70 meters, measured straight ahead.
TT circuit Assen, home of the Dutch MotoGP race. Pits straight is 620 meters, the tarmac run off is 24 meters, the gravel another 41 meters. This part was built only a few years ago, so I reckon it's up to modern safety standards.

Although unofficial, I think this method gives you a pretty good idea what size you need your traps to be without spending thousands of dollars.

That's exactly what I have done, I have gone through all the important circuits and measured the straight vs the run-off and the most I've seen is 100m(Qatar) , with the norm being 50-70m. Back to our rule of the thumb, Catalunya having a K long, means probably speeds in excess of 200MPH which would mean 200ft of run-off, 200ft=60M so it's a good estimation without any expensive software.

As important as the distance is the position, as out of control vehicles almost never follow the geometric shape of the track, the direction should follow the race line, which is considered the ruling parameter of a racetrack.

[LuiggiSpeed]

I like your circuit a lot Alexander, my only concern is that for a 2.5 mile it looks a little bit crowded , but it's very organic and natural.

[bio]

Originally Posted by JVT

Who knows YOUR track design could actually become real.

Hi,
wish they did... But i still say racing track should be a business for pros - its a dangerous thing after all, not a game anymore if they get to be built. Its fun to design tracks knowing its never gonna be reality - but real ones... Thats a lot of responsibility... And should be most definitely designed by qualified pros. They know what theyre doing and what the implications of the designs are - we mostly dont...
bio

[JVT]

Originally Posted by bio

Hi,
wish they did... But i still say racing track should be a business for pros - its a dangerous thing after all, not a game anymore if they get to be built. Its fun to design tracks knowing its never gonna be reality - but real ones... Thats a lot of responsibility... And should be most definitely designed by qualified pros. They know what theyre doing and what the implications of the designs are - we mostly dont...
bio

There's nothing wrong with taking your design and getting it looked over for safety, then having whatever need to be improved upon. I think there's some good talent on here.

[bio]

Originally Posted by JVT

There's nothing wrong with taking your design and getting it looked over for safety, then having whatever need to be improved upon. I think there's some good talent on here.

I agree with the talent part completely.

bio

[bio]

Originally Posted by dyewat808

OFF-TOPIC
Bio, about that, what software do you use, cos I found it once, forgot its name, and can't find it again?

Hi,
Ocad for 2D visualisation and Blender + TrackEd for 3D bulding into playable format, Racer to drive on it.

bio

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by bio

Hi,
Ocad for 2D visualisation and Blender + TrackEd for 3D bulding into playable format, Racer to drive on it.

bio

Ah yes, I remember

Cheers - might look into it!

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by bio

Hi,
wish they did... But i still say racing track should be a business for pros - its a dangerous thing after all, not a game anymore if they get to be built. Its fun to design tracks knowing its never gonna be reality - but real ones... Thats a lot of responsibility... And should be most definitely designed by qualified pros. They know what theyre doing and what the implications of the designs are - we mostly dont...
bio

Originally Posted by JVT

There's nothing wrong with taking your design and getting it looked over for safety, then having whatever need to be improved upon. I think there's some good talent on here.

There's nothing special or exclusive to designing a circuit, matter of fact is, most "emblematic" circuits of past eras had been modified for safety as the years pass and we get more and more knowledge of what not to do, and it cost lots of lives, from what we have discussed around here in the time we have been together we have discussed and analized many circuits, I personally have pointed out safety issues, AMOF I seem to be the bihctig one when I see some obvious hazard or some funky section. We have studied the design of modern circuits and the trends of Wilson, Tilke and others and I as a racer that has raced and seen death at the track in front of my very eyes, I feel qualified enough to point out deficiencies and make recommendations, I have done so in real life for 3 years and taken FIM courses and as of today I have never had a serious injury of any kind in any of the events I had organized or supervised and I intend to keep it like that. So all the circuits we design around here certainly get checked for safety in some form.

Luiggi

[Alexander86]

I modified my initial design a bit after your comments. Thanks for all of them!

T4 has changed quite a bit as on second sight I found it to slow, tight and boring. But you may disagree of course. For comparison I projected the old hairpin next to it. You will notice the new T4 added a few more yards to the track.

I moved T15 a bit closer to T14 to give the altered last sector a bit more room.

As you can see the last sector looks more clean now and is faster. I hope this takes away the "crowded" feel of the track.

[bio]

Then maybe it is just me - I don't like to do things I'm not qualified to do.

"There's nothing special or exclusive to designing a circuit"

I do think there are tons os special things about it. That's why most of our tracks here are great eye candy, but would most probably fail in real life.

bio

[JVT]

Originally Posted by bio

Then maybe it is just me - I don't like to do things I'm not qualified to do.

"There's nothing special or exclusive to designing a circuit"

I do think there are tons os special things about it. That's why most of our tracks here are great eye candy, but would most probably fail in real life.

bio

Who's to say your not qualified, because you don't have a paper saying you are.
I can do many things, most very well, some not. My point is you don't need someone to tell you hey your qualified, if you design something and a majority says its good, then it is quite possibly actually good.

[bio]

JVT,

Thanx for believing in my ability to design tracks , but its me who says im not qualified. I know nothing about dynamics, for a start. I know nothing about the physics of cornering, braking, overtaking or crashing. I know nothing about aerodynamics. Or, what i know is common sense. Alternatively, you might have racing experience that teaches you all you have to know. Thats why i never argue with Luiggi, for instance. Theres a massive amount of experience behind anything he says and nothing beats that.

Building a track is a darn expensive thing, racing on one is dangerous. And while it is true that any closed trackline can be raced on, still i think designing a real one requires either experience or a good theoretical knowledge base - and i lack both.

This is, however, nothing more than an opinion.

bio

[tausif]

My Trackers:

There is no degree or institute for track design in particular. Maybe its part science, maybe its part black art - but I think that many designs presented in this forum are quite amazing. In real world the land dimensions are perhaps the most important factor for the design. Many of you can seriously design a circuit that would work well.

I have designed and built one small club circuit and 4 kart tracks. People have raced on these and enjoyed themselves - however, I do not consider myself a professional track designer.

It appears that many pro designers are somewhat over-rated and way too expensive.

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by bio

Then maybe it is just me - I don't like to do things I'm not qualified to do.

"There's nothing special or exclusive to designing a circuit"

I do think there are tons os special things about it. That's why most of our tracks here are great eye candy, but would most probably fail in real life.

bio

The rules for building and designing are rather sparse, basically you can race anywhere and the fact that historically there have been many tracks with safety issues, many redesigns, many track closures and many,many tragedies in racing history is a proof that track designing is a work in progress at best, fortunately, the thinking minds have come into play and most modern tracks are designed with common sense.

I haven't been that long in this science but I see most modern circuits use common sense in physics and racing expertise to predict where racers are most likely to fall or crash, how sections should be laid out in order to avoid situations that may compromise racers safety, and so on. It doesn't require a masters degree in track design, that doesn't exist, people race on whatever is available(look up the tracks in US) and sometimes good tracks are purposely designed(Miller Motorsports), sometimes are poorly designed and then need serious changes(Sears Point, Laguna Seca) some can't be raceable(the ones in my country) and some are totally scientific designed and almost bullet proof(Qatar).

So basically anybody with some knowledge can try and design a track but there are certain aspects that can make a design good or bad, a good track doesn't need to "look" good or artistic, but rather work adn later on I'd like to make a list of characteristics that a good track "should" have.

[bio]

Luiggi,
I still think designing real tracks without proper knowledge is a dangerous and irresponsible thing - but, as i said, i especially respect your point of view.

bio

[bio]

Tausif,
I reckon track designing not art, but sheer science and practicality.
That is, again, my point of view only.

bio

[JVT]

Back on topic, make me some tracks....

[LuiggiSpeed]

Originally Posted by bio

Luiggi,
I still think designing real tracks without proper knowledge is a dangerous and irresponsible thing - but, as i said, i especially respect your point of view.

bio

Oh that's my point of view too!

I'm only saying between us, we do good jobs for the most part, I have known cases where tracks have been constructed by The One with The Money, who is not necessarily The One with The Knowledge and everything has turned to sh... , in one case a racetrack in south america is unraceable because the owner himself had the terrific idea of laid out the track between trees and a corner right next to a cut-off hill...in other case closer to me the owner of the track made a modification where eventually there was a fatality, and the track is now closed and a sue in progress.

That's consistent to what you have stated(bio) and I agree, but the efforts I see around here are much more thought out and scrutinized than the real life examples I mentioned. I'm pretty sure most of the tracks the good amateur designers here submit are reasonable designs and some of them got a little flame from me when I see something funky, so eventually they are good.

Other aspects of track design, I also check the terrain from the sky for obstacles or nuisances like wet sumps, creeks, lakes, tree lines or other type of obstacle that may increase the cost of the project or may compromise safety or durability, such as laying tarmac too close to a creek, where it will give with time, giving a headache to the owner.

Most aspects I like to have in a design, in general:

Longest possible straight, without going over 900-1000m
Symmetrical number of turns, when possible
variety of corner type, challenging track
avoidance of a bridge, to reduce costs
Track not too tortuous, not too simple, 10-15 turns maximum.
most efficient use of the terrain,adaptation of the blot shape to terrain contour
Combination of technical sections vs speed sections

and so on...

SO for JVT I would submit another try later on.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by JVT

Back on topic, make me some tracks....

How about adding a design of your own using some of the features that you want to include, that could be then be "fleshed out a bit"

[LuiggiSpeed]

So I'm somehow sticking to my first shot, but with some edits,using the northern part of the terrain, and the basic layout I threw from the hip but I have detailed the sections, taking into account it's a "motorcycle track" (and you all know I do race motorcycles ) to come up with the corner types I like to ride. I included increasing radius, a half-parabolica a hairpin,a double-apex, some high speed esses and many directional changes.I also laid lots of run-off and plenty of open space for the 2.5 mile loop, the pit lane is in the "correct side" but that means some kind of control gate or a bridge(that can be changed).Pit lane is almost 400m long.It has many overtaking spots and the end of the lap it's perfect IMHO for epic endings! It's a rather technical circuit, geometrically it has 18 turns but the race line has less than that. I purposely avoided the wet sumps and the tree lines for economical/practical reasons.
The first graphic is how the track interacts with the terrain, the second one is a representation of the track.

[JVT]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

How about adding a design of your own using some of the features that you want to include, that could be then be "fleshed out a bit"

I tried I'm terrible at it

[JVT]

Originally Posted by LuiggiSpeed

So I'm somehow sticking to my first shot, but with some edits,using the northern part of the terrain, and the basic layout I threw from the hip but I have detailed the sections, taking into account it's a "motorcycle track" (and you all know I do race motorcycles ) to come up with the corner types I like to ride. I included increasing radius, a half-parabolica a hairpin,a double-apex, some high speed esses and many directional changes.I also laid lots of run-off and plenty of open space for the 2.5 mile loop, the pit lane is in the "correct side" but that means some kind of control gate or a bridge(that can be changed).Pit lane is almost 400m long.It has many overtaking spots and the end of the lap it's perfect IMHO for epic endings! It's a rather technical circuit, geometrically it has 18 turns but the race line has less than that. I purposely avoided the wet sumps and the tree lines for economical/practical reasons.
The first graphic is how the track interacts with the terrain, the second one is a representation of the track.

Excellent I love it

[bio]

Luiggi,
one of the prime reasons i like this forum is that we give and get good, usable and constructive feedback and so we are getting better all the time.

bio

[JVT]

Hey still here