Toyota/Rebellion Racing - Le Mans/ILMC/LMS - 2011 (merged)

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Rebellion is a Swiss watch maker, and the Hayden family are the actual team owners as far as I've been able to figure.

And I think, at least for now, Toyota is mainly functioning as engine supplier.

Im not so sure . It was originally set up as Speedy Racing and was a Swiss team , run by Hayden . I think possibily in their Spyker years they were maybe run by Spyker , their car I mean .

It had sponsorship from Rebellion then . Now I think its still a Swiss team , managed by Hayden . Correct me if im wrong .

Rebellion I think is an upmarket Swiss watch company , linked to another famous brand of Swiss watch maunfacturers . I tried looking for Rebellion watchs , they start prices at around 15.000 grand !!!

[rich07]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Rebellion is a Swiss watch maker, and the Hayden family are the actual team owners as far as I've been able to figure.

Knew of the former, didnt know about the latter. ?

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Rebellion is a Swiss watch maker, and the Hayden family are the actual team owners as far as I've been able to figure.

And I think, at least for now, Toyota is mainly functioning as engine supplier.

Nope, The Badger is correct, the team owner is Alex Pesci who (with Steve Clarici) founded Rebellion Timepieces about 3 years ago. The Hayden family were the founders of Sebah Racing, and it is Sebah Racing who (under the guise of Rebellion Racing) manage and operate the team. Bart Hayden is Team Manager.

[Truckosaurus]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

Think we can say Toyota involvement is more in doubt in short term with the Tsunami etc creating profits drops like this

http://automotive.speedtv.com/articl...op-77-percent/

I'm not an economist but isn't there some merit to the thought that the tsunami will be good for Japanese car sales in the medium term as all the cars and trucks we all saw being washed away on the news will have to be replaced from somewhere? Once insurances have paid out, people's lives will return to normality and with higher priority items like roofs over your head dealt with I suspect there will be queues around the block at every car lot in town.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Nope, The Badger is correct, the team owner is Alex Pesci who (with Steve Clarici) founded Rebellion Timepieces about 3 years ago. The Hayden family were the founders of Sebah Racing, and it is Sebah Racing who (under the guise of Rebellion Racing) manage and operate the team. Bart Hayden is Team Manager.

Thanks for the explanation, didnt think the Haydens owned Rebellion watches.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by rich07

Thanks for the explanation, didnt think the Haydens owned Rebellion watches.

I think it's also worth mentioning that the team owner and his associates are huge fans of the sport, and that's the reason they are involved.

Living the dream!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Actually, I'd rather see both of them go it alone...

If Toyota were really serious about this, they'd run the programme out of Cologne on their own...

And we can't be sure that Lola will keep selling non-Toyota customer chassis when they are occupied with their Toyota deal.

That may yet be the case, there's nothing in the article to suggest Rebellion Racing will be involved.

But, I would personally prefer to see the Rebellion/Toyota partnership continue, with Rebellion racing the new chassis in 2012.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by Truckosaurus

I'm not an economist but isn't there some merit to the thought that the tsunami will be good for Japanese car sales in the medium term as all the cars and trucks we all saw being washed away on the news will have to be replaced from somewhere? Once insurances have paid out, people's lives will return to normality and with higher priority items like roofs over your head dealt with I suspect there will be queues around the block at every car lot in town.

In principle yes, but do not think many cars were washed away to make enough impact. Bigger issue is when you do not have production facilities to make the cars so you can sell the cars you do not make profit, and profit pays for racing.

Toyota are only just going to recover to about 70% capacity in Japan by July time.

Will have an impact on decisions making, even if it is only a delay.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

That may yet be the case, there's nothing in the article to suggest Rebellion Racing will be involved.

But, I would personally prefer to see the Rebellion/Toyota partnership continue, with Rebellion racing the new chassis in 2012.

Won't the 2012 chassis essentially be what Rebellion have now, perhaps with a further upgrade, seeing as Lola talk about developments that could give them a competitive advantage.

[GT6]

Rebellion is a well run and highly professional team, if toyota were to return to sportscar racing they would be hard pushed to find a better way to do it than with rebellion, the fact they have the engines means that they have a good relationship with toyota and I think we will see more involvement in the next year or two

[TF110]

Toyota aren't pressed for cash though. They still turned a 5billion dollar+ profit last fiscal year. Not many companies make that each year. So I'm not expecting them to think twice about future motorsports activities, at least not yet. Japan will bounce back. Thanks for the insight on Rebellion btw. I for one hope Toyota stick with them, and likewise for Rebellion. Good things are to come from this partnership, I can feel it.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota aren't pressed for cash though. They still turned a 5billion dollar+ profit last fiscal year. Not many companies make that each year. So I'm not expecting them to think twice about future motorsports activities, at least not yet. Japan will bounce back. Thanks for the insight on Rebellion btw. I for one hope Toyota stick with them, and likewise for Rebellion. Good things are to come from this partnership, I can feel it.

Rich yes, but were even more rich when they pulled out of F1! They made a good profit but still 20% less than they forecast in February 2011. Do not underestimate how fiscal and domestic factors will affect any racing programme.

If they do LMP, imo it will be a Toyota programme from top to bottom, not run via a team and not before 2013 at earliest.

[Bentley03]

Ok, I've read the article (here) on the ACO website over and over, and (as DSC point out) something has indeed been lost in the English translation (here).

Not a direct translation, but this is my take on what's being said:
There will (potentially) be 2 additional Lola Toyota's competing in ACO regs racing next year. Rebellion x 2 plus either one additional 2 car team or two additional 1 car teams. The 4 cars will compete in the ILMC. That said, my understanding from the article is that there are no confirmed orders for the additional 2 cars.

[Dead-Eye]

It seems to me like something was blown way out of proportion. Essentially Toyota say they're willing to supply more engines if someone wants to order some - that's not a big story.

[MulsanneMike]

From Lola's Sam Smith:

"Toyota will make additional LMP1 engines available exclusively to Lola for 2012. This increase will enable 4 cars to be run in the 2012 ILMC in addition to either the ALMS or LMS series"

I asked, "Just to be clear, so no other chassis manufacturer can run (or will run) Toyota engines next year?"

To which Sam responded, "Yes it is an exclusive agreement for 2011 and 2012."

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

From Lola's Sam Smith:

"Toyota will make additional LMP1 engines available exclusively to Lola for 2012. This increase will enable 4 cars to be run in the 2012 ILMC in addition to either the ALMS or LMS series"

I asked, "Just to be clear, so no other chassis manufacturer can run (or will run) Toyota engines next year?"

To which Sam responded, "Yes it is an exclusive agreement for 2011 and 2012."

Which seems to suggest this will remain an engine program, and not the beginnings of a full Toyota chassis entry, at least until the end of 2012.

[gwyllion]

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmay11.html has a short Q&A with Bart Hayden about the upgrade package.

[The Badger]

Love to see Intersport get the money together for one of these little monsters .

Whats the chances of that happening ? Slim & nil ?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Which seems to suggest this will remain an engine program, and not the beginnings of a full Toyota chassis entry, at least until the end of 2012.

Oh no, not at all. Toyota's LMP project is independent of this announcement.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Oh no, not at all. Toyota's LMP project is independent of this announcement.

Mike - Do you know something we don't? .

(or am i reading too much into the "Toyota's LMP project is independent of this announcement." )

[alexkiller8]

toyota shuold do like nissan in late '80 and aston martin did, buy some lola chassis, modify something in aero package and go in the battlefield with an official team (or use the rebellion team as work team, just changing the name). Surely won't never win against audi or peugeot but will be a huge internation visibility, and more manufacters joins the ILMC and more this champ can evolve.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

toyota shuold do like nissan in late '80 and aston martin did, buy some lola chassis, modify something in aero package and go in the battlefield with an official team (or use the rebellion team as work team, just changing the name). Surely won't never win against audi or peugeot but will be a huge internation visibility, and more manufacters joins the ILMC and more this champ can evolve.

Well, Nissan didn't buy and then modify Lola chassis.
Nissan ordered Lola to make the cars for them (ei. like Dome), and the Nissan made a aero kit for the high downforce circuits.

Rebellion is a serious outfit, and with proper manufacture backing, could be competition against Audi and Peugeot, all they need is the budget.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

toyota shuold do like nissan in late '80 and aston martin did, buy some lola chassis, modify something in aero package and go in the battlefield with an official team (or use the rebellion team as work team, just changing the name). Surely won't never win against audi or peugeot but will be a huge internation visibility, and more manufacters joins the ILMC and more this champ can evolve.

I doubt that they will be happy with a Aston Martin like performance.

If Toyota returns to Le Mans, it will be with a full blown effort: engine, KERS, chassis all developed in house. They have a big facility (Toyota Motorsport GmbH) in Koln, Germany, with skilled engineers and all the necessary equipment.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by CTD

Mike - Do you know something we don't? .

(or am i reading too much into the "Toyota's LMP project is independent of this announcement." )

Not really, but I do regularly speak with people involved. Naturally they're tight lipped as hell, but the basic fact that they are working on something (and still working on it) doesn't need to be said to reach the conclusion I've reached.

[MitchZ06]

Quick OT question Mike, are you just involved in aerodynamics or do you have a hand in other areas? (say drivetrain technology?)