2012 a tough year for Marshals?

[The Flagman]

Interesting articles on Page 77 of this weeks Autosport.

Seems to be common theme that organisers are trying to cram more track activity into the racing day. From the racers point of view this means races may be sacrificed if the timetable falls behind.

From our point of view this means more intense days with minimal, if any, breaks. Organisers will pressure marshals to clear up incidents faster than ever. We stand a greater chance of falling foul of bad weather and being in position on duty for longer spells increase the chances of suffering from 'Marshals Leg'. As a flaggie I find that on cold days a sudden burst of yellow can strain the muscles. Rather like running without some sort of warm up.

Rather surprisingly, Adrian Fawdington of Castle Combe is quoted '..marshals will run through without a lunch break' Wouldn't expect this from a respected fellow unless they were desperate.

Last year HSCC scheduled 40min lunch breaks but the majority of days resulted in next to no lunch breaks as the time was used to absorb lateness from the morning. I took this up with Graeme White, HSCC Race Director, along with a few others. We were accused of being 'occasional whingers' and 'most marshals seemed not to mind'. I beg to differ with Graeme and I know there have been a few comments on this forum about the lack of down time. Personally I suffer from fatigue especially when, as commonly happens, I flag alone. I know by late afternoon I'm flagging in the other sense!

Where there are sufficient Marshals to organise a stand down this will be less of a problem but how often does this happen?

Maybe we should be happy with a few more races with half a dozen cars to fill the day!

So do we face the inevitable or start making noises before more folk decide it simply isn't worth it and hang up their probans?

David Morgan

[Sitting Bull]

Regarding lunch breaks for marshals. What must be remembered is, although we are volunteers, we have the same rights as if we were paid. It all boils down to a 'duty of care'. If an incident occurs towards the end of the day, because a marshal has been on duty for an excessive amount of hours, it would undoubtedly be difficult to find an answer in any enquiry.
I am sure that an experienced Clerk of the Course would accept that it is vital for the safe running of a meeting, to ensures that the marshals are able to do their work to the best of their ability.
Unfortunately, the MSA are not very helpful on this subject, there is nothing in the 'Blue book' to address this other than E 11.1, which doesnt really apply. There have been a number of e-mails between myself and the MSA regarding this, but obviously they are unwilling to put any ruling on paper.
Ultimately, i suppose, it is up to a 'strong' Chief Marshal to order his marshals to stand down if the worst comes to the worst. Hopefully, that will never happen.

[lucky scarf]

Read the article in Autosport with a sense of dread. The lunch break is effectively lost earnings for the organising club and it seems simple to cut down on this. I guess as cash becomes tighter for more and more of us when we read a timetable with a 30 minute lunch break (which is effectively 20 to allow for getting on to post 10 mins before start of afternoon) the dread will result in marshals voting with their feet and sending the tickets back. Sometimes losing most of lunch is accepted due to circumstances (Mazdas at OP with 26 tyre wall rebuilds last year spring to mind) but if it happens week in week out.

Whilst the comments about rotation and marshals standing down could occur at bigger meetings for many meetings this could be very difficult to arrange, particularly where marshal numbers may be low.

Would be interesting to hear whether this issue has been raised with the BMMC at any stage in respect of planning for 2012. It may also be an issue for all of us to ensure any concerns are raised with the BMMC Circuit reps.

[M Greenslade]

I see very little difference with marshalling long days in the 70's as today, it is your choice if you do it or not, so what is the problem, after all you still have the best seat in the house for free, please don't whinge..............enjoy it

Bladders.............

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by M Greenslade

it is your choice if you do it or not

Been there before. The problem was a lot decided not to do it any more and others didn't start. And then it's 'who'd have thought it, not enough marshals' with the corresponding additional delays because not enough people to clear up and deal with incidents, etc, etc.

after all you still have the best seat in the house for free

Or sometimes the worst, depending where you're posted. And then there's all that petrol for 30 odd round trips of 70-200 miles plus lunches plus overalls and equipment... not quite free.

The same economic downturn that's going to affect the number of drivers is probably going to affect the number of marshals. So how about fewer, less niche races with more cars in them to make it both more profitable and more interesting? I for one will be very careful about where I'm committing my time this year, and fail to consider my welfare and fail to entertain me, I'll be going elsewhere.

[Slipstick]

The first time I did some marshalling in the early 90s was at a meeting where there were not enough marshals to run it, so they had to drag in a bunch of us hangers-on from the paddock to make up the numbers. And that was a 750MC meeting where the marshals are always treated rather well. I'm not sure we'll get to that again soon but any suggestion that marshals should regularly expect to be on post in all weathers for 10 hours or so without any breaks will certainly go a fair way to making it happen.

OTOH the few clubbie meetings I did last year were mostly so inundated with marshals that this year I've been specifically looking for meetings where I might actually be a bit more useful. But I guess having almost too many volunteers is not a particularly common problem. Or is it ?

Steve

[TrueBlueFlyer]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The same economic downturn that's going to affect the number of drivers is probably going to affect the number of marshals. So how about fewer, less niche races with more cars in them to make it both more profitable and more interesting? I for one will be very careful about where I'm committing my time this year, and fail to consider my welfare and fail to entertain me, I'll be going elsewhere.

I used the financial crisis of 2008 as an excuse to travel... went to Australia for a year to wait it out... came back, it was just as bad, so I left again to Singapore and now find myself in New Zealand for another year to "wait out" the downturn. I don't have much money to do this but considering the alternative, still beats sitting at home in US looking for a job in a desperate market.

At any rate, volunteering at events is not free by any stretch of the imagination. Some guys commute a few miles while others like myself choose to go for thousands of miles. (Australia/Malaysia/Singapore) Its a great opportunity to do something that I haven't done before.

That being said, I have yet to find a marshal that was thrilled with the way events are run... whether in Singapore or now in New Zealand everyone has a word or two to say how things could be better. And so far in NZ I've witnessed shortages of marshals on a number of occasions. So I guess depending where you are on the food chain, you can make plenty of noise about how things are done. Personally, I'm just happy to have an opportunity to do this. As someone said above: I get the best seat in the house

[Apple]

I personally am not bothered about getting a lunch break,The five ten or even fifteen mins break we get in between races is enough fro me.
I enjoy being occupied all the time I'm there.
I know that does not suit everyone.
Mick

[MacGWC]

Originally Posted by Apple

I personally am not bothered about getting a lunch break,The five ten or even fifteen mins break we get in between races is enough fro me.
Mick

Fine if you do get a break between races, which is not always the case, with some clubs abandoning the course car between races, and if you are near a decent toilet when nature calls!

[Greem]

I was typing something earlier about there being a spread of people being involved, and Mick has very succinctly demonstrated it.

Some people want or need a break (or more than one), especially during a long day.
Some people don't.

However this isn't simply about marshals "on the bank", is it? What about the timekeepers, radio/telephony folks, specialists in pits/assembly/paddock, rescue units, recovery units, scrutineers, stewards...?

I think David has raised a very interesting point, and it isn't one that has an obvious answer really. If there are enough of us to go round ("us" meaning *all* the officials of a meeting) then we can rotate, stand down, have a break. If there aren't, then we can't.

Clarification is needed as to whether:

1. We should (and this is where "I want to" and "I don't want to" come in)
2. We can (i.e. are there enough people to make it possible)
3. We have a "right" to

...which ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you know you're not going to get a break, and you're the type of person who wants or needs one, you won't volunteer for a certain club/meeting/circuit.

Aaaaand we end up right back in the position Woolley mentioned above.

Speaking from a purely personal point of view, if I end up feeling like somebody/club is taking the pee, I'll stop going. It hasn't happened yet (well... maybe it has, actually, but not in these terms!), but there again I'm a mere whippersnapper in marshalling experience.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Greem

Speaking from a purely personal point of view, if I end up feeling like somebody/club is taking the pee, I'll stop going.

Or a circuit !

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Apple

I personally am not bothered about getting a lunch break,The five ten or even fifteen mins break we get in between races is enough fro me.
I enjoy being occupied all the time I'm there.
I know that does not suit everyone.

Same here really.
I'm really not bothered about looking round paddocks at lunchtimes! A racing car is not a racing car when it's not racing

[lucky scarf]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Same here really.
I'm really not bothered about looking round paddocks at lunchtimes! A racing car is not a racing car when it's not racing

But if there's not enough officials whether on the bank or at race control sadly it may mean that a racing car may not be racing......

As stated I think this has the potential to be a problem and whilst it may not be an issue for some if it has the potential to drive away some marshals, its an issue to be considered rather than ignored.

[Woolley]

Simple fact is that if the clubs would concentrate on filling up their grids better instead of running an ever increasing number of races with poor grids, this wouldn't be a problem. If you need 300 cars to break even, it's a simple matter of economics that you can do that with either a few well-supported races or with a lot of under-supported ones.

Unfortunately, they seem to want to go the other way with lots of niche races, and because we cost the same however long we're their (generally nothing anyway) the easy solution is to take advantage of us instead of dealing with the actual problem. Racing in this country is badly fragmented and run too much for vested interests to the detriment of the sport as a whole.

[Stack]

Woolley, I just have to agree wholeheartedly with the line....

"the easy solution is to take advantage of us instead of dealing with the actual problem"

Small grids for long races (the BARC Chevron series is a good example) is my main bugbear. I don't mind late finishes on a SATURDAY but on Sundays where I have a fair drive home and work the next day is a no no.

Why do clubs seem fit to introduce brand new series when they are running established series with barely enough cars to call it a race?

I said I would do less meetings this year but in having started planning I find I have put down about the same number! These will HAVE to be whittled down as with the ever spiralling fuel costs I can no longer afford to marshal every weekend.

There also seems a lot less clubbie meetings. 750MC have said they have cut back on meetings and at my local track Mallory there are no BRSCC meetings (Oct 7th is HRDC) this year, no Masters meeting , no VSCC meeting, no HSCC meeting, only one 750 meeting and BARC, the circuits "resident" club, have only two meetings if you don't count the Plum Pudding which is shared with bikes and only has only a couple of races! Could this be because Mallory has an early curfew........??????
Could the loss of the 750 meeting at Oulton Park be due in part to the prohibition of Sunday racing?

I think the time where the usual trait of a marshal to grin and bare whatever the organizers decide to throw at them is sadly coming to an end.

[The Fat Clerk]

You have to remember that Mallory is primarily a bike circuit, all ways was and all ways will be. Every weekend of the season there is something on, just that the majority are 2 wheels rather than 4.
There are 2 two day car meetings again this year - CTRC on July 28/29 & CSCC on August 26/27 + the VSCC are coming on Sunday June 24th

[expaddockrunner]

as greem quoted,
"However this isn't simply about marshals "on the bank", is it? What about the timekeepers, radio/telephony folks, specialists in pits/assembly/paddock, rescue units, recovery units, scrutineers, stewards...?"

Sometimes these jobs/roles on a race meeting start before circuit action starts and after the last race of the day,

and rememeber, it may be a free ticket! but a dangerous one if caught in line of fire of flying cars! (sorry, out of control cars), parts or tools!

[Greem]

As umpteen people before me have said in different places, "bring solutions, not problems".

We obviously have the latter. Now instead of bleating, how do *we* fix it?

[fazza]

Originally Posted by lucky scarf

Would be interesting to hear whether this issue has been raised with the BMMC at any stage in respect of planning for 2012. It may also be an issue for all of us to ensure any concerns are raised with the BMMC Circuit reps.

Yes it has on may occasions.

The BMMC and the Circuits are not resposible of the timetables, these are set by the clubs. The BMMC have passed on thier members concerns to the clubs that have schedulled short lunches, but are powerless to force a change.

[theracegypsy]

One of the reasons I do so much marshalling in North America (apart from personal reasons) is that all the big meetings run a "time certain" timetable. If practice is red flagged the clock does not stop. If repair/clean up is required the clock does not stop.

It certainly means that most occasions we get a lunch break and finish on time.

Also all meetings there publish the timetable well in advance. If it is an endurance race, yes it might well run into dark, but at least you are aware of that when you sign up.

[lucky scarf]

Originally Posted by fazza

Yes it has on may occasions.

The BMMC and the Circuits are not resposible of the timetables, these are set by the clubs. The BMMC have passed on thier members concerns to the clubs that have schedulled short lunches, but are powerless to force a change.

Thanks Fazza

[ChrisPage]

Originally Posted by expaddockrunner

and rememeber, it may be a free ticket! but a dangerous one if caught in line of fire of flying cars! (sorry, out of control cars), parts or tools!

Yes. I'm new to this marshalling lark, so I'm watching the debate keenly. My impression giving it a mull over is that I'm the sort to graze on my snap through the day, and so so long as I get 5 minutes between races I'm mostly all good. But as a previous poster said, when you get to the stage of feeling you are having the pee taken out of you on a constant basis, then thats when you start to consider if this club/venue/promotor is worth it.

But back to the quote above, one thing I never was interested in marshalling for was a free race ticket. I started to be involved in the sport I love and to contribute. I marshall to be on hand. And, as in the quote, we are there to help everyone else keep safe and by doing so put ourselves out there too. I'm there for the exact opposite of a day 'watching' motorsport. After buying a race suit, new boots, a box for my stuff, gloves and petrol I certainly haven't found it to be 'free' either! Thats before buying winter gear and all the other bits everyone seems to accrue.

I suspect anyone getting involved for a free jolly at the races wouldn't last very long, with the investment in kit and the long days being constantly preppared for getting stuck in. So I would be very cross if any club/body ever suggested a marshal's voice on lunch breaks etc wasn't valid as he was having a free day out. Very angry indeed!

[MacGWC]

Originally Posted by ChrisPage

But back to the quote above, one thing I never was interested in marshalling for was a free race ticket.

With many marshals spending £200+ for a weekend's marshalling I am not sure your "free" ticket - even if for the best seat in the house as another contributer described it - is really "free"!

In the next day or so there will be an update report on www.marshals.co.uk which will bring everyone up to date with what the BMMC is doing to address some of the (important!) issues discussed on this thread. I will post again when it is there.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

If it is an endurance race, yes it might well run into dark, but at least you are aware of that when you sign up.

I think that is the key factor. In my view, the clubs that can provide indications as to meeting start and finish times and indeed lunch times (there are a few examples of this; for instance the CSCC) are particularly welcome. I have no particular problem in turning up for a meeting knowing that there will be lunch break and/or a late finish provided that such information is known in advance of volunteering and I've had the opportunity to weigh up such occurances with the quality of the racing on offer.

[expaddockrunner]

Originally Posted by ChrisPage

But back to the quote above, one thing I never was interested in marshalling for was a free race ticket.

The word "Free", does not describe that the day could start out as early as 5am! on a sunday, travel to a circuit, arrive 2 hrs (sometimes) before any track action, be on a promise of a lunch break, if your on a quiet posting, enjoy some close racing, then after its all finished, find your car, for the journey home, (sometimes cold and damp after the rain we stood in all day or hurting from the sunburn!), only to have a quick rest before back to work on monday morning.

dont get me wrong, there is pros and cons about marshalling.
but no amount of money can buy the friends that you meet along the way, the banter between friends and drivers (when in a good mood) you get at any circuit

work hrs has stopped me from attending any meetings, but given the chance i would be back like a shot. working or not.