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1 Apr 2013, 12:11 (Ref:3227552) | #26 | ||
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I would like to see the series consolidate with venues primarily in North America. The mid '90s produced some of the best racing I've ever seen and with a good mix of tracks and countries. Take 1994 for example and substitute Surfers with Sao Paulo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_IndyCar_season
If there's to be another race in Canada and why not, have it at Montreal. |
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2 Apr 2013, 19:25 (Ref:3228189) | #27 | ||
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Toronto is a very good street circuit. It's reasonably wide, and in its 1.755-mile lap, it has two good overtaking zones (Turns 1 and 3), and one other decent zone (Turn 8). Toronto has been putting on better races for the Indy Cars than Sears Point has done, and better races at the front of the field than we've seen at Mid Ohio. Prior to the new car, Toronto was putting on better races than at all three of the permanent road courses presently on the calendar.
Andretti's marketing arm has been improving Toronto since the trough in 2009. Of course, it's not back to what it was in 1994-95, but nothing is! Building something up inherently takes longer than tearing it down. Mosport would probably be required (by the FIA) to have significant, additional debris fencing for IndyCar to run there. Given the long absence of big open-wheelers from Mosport, there might be further demands for larger run-offs in some areas, and it may not be feasible to add that space in those locations. Also, I think there might be concerns about those two new bridges (between Turns 1 and 2, and before Turn 8). There's the visibility issue, plus there may be concerns about height clearance, if a car does launch exiting Turn 1, or near the top of the Mario Andretti Straight. As for the racing at Mosport, you have to realize that IndyCar and Sportscars are very different animals; the multi-class aspect of Sportscar racing is perhaps the most obvious difference. With this in mind, remember that Mosport, around its 2.459-mile lap, has just the one conventional outbraking/overtaking zone down at Moss Corner. For the Indy Cars, Turns 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, and 8 would definitely be flat-out. Turn 9 could be darn near flat as well. Turn 3 isn't much of a braking zone. Also, the severely winding approach to Turn 10 would make overtaking there difficult; it's kind of like having that kink before the hairpin at Suzuka. The area of Vancouver where the Molson Indy took place has changed due to the construction for the 2010 Winter Olympics. I don't know if a circuit anything like the old courses is possible now with the re-worked street plan. The bigger issue is the "green" city government, who probably wouldn't approve a car race through the city now. I don't think IndyCar would want the embarrassment of seeing the confirmation of how much slower they are than F1 by running at Montreal. I also wonder whether Bernie, in the new contract, might dictate that F1 shall be the sole, major open wheel series that gets to use the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. |
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2 Apr 2013, 20:19 (Ref:3228219) | #28 | ||
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Montreal has serious problems of their own that will affect racing on the Il Notre-Dame for any series that uses it, and this will become more apparent to the public in the following years.
Toronto has not been ''improved'', in 2009 the attendance was 15,000, 2010 it was 20,000, 2011 it was 23,000 and then fell again to 20,000 in 2012. All horrific numbers for something the Taxpayers have to put their money up for. Also, tell Mikey about a little casino plan that may just have on impact on the race soon enough. Vancouver if it ever happens, which it won't, will be unable to utilise it's former layout. Construction pre-and post-Olympics has made most of the track unusable for any racing circuit. |
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2 Apr 2013, 20:47 (Ref:3228232) | #29 | ||
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A growth of 53% in two years is nothing to scoff at. Promote it, and promote the fact that the new car is more raceable. Andretti has other events that are working, so his group should be able to apply the elements that work to Toronto. And one building/complex isn't going to make a circuit impossible, assuming it even happens. The developers aren't going to be allowed to destroy a bunch of major arteries through downtown, like Lake Shore Boulevard. Also, given the time needed for large projects, it could be a while before anything happens. I'm sure there would have to be quite a bit of demolition in the area before any large structure could be put up in the vicinity.
Yeah, I had heard as much about Vancouver. Funny, you didn't refute anything I said about Mosport. IndyCar NEEDS a Canadian round, and for now, Toronto is it. Deal with it. BTW, the early rumblings seem to indicate that Bernie may well get what he wants from Montreal, so those issues you speak of could easily get nipped in the bud. I guess we'll see. Last edited by Purist; 2 Apr 2013 at 20:53. |
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3 Apr 2013, 08:49 (Ref:3228413) | #30 | |
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I agree with the points Purist has made about Toronto. It's a good track to have on the schedule (maybe not as a double-header but we'll se how that works this season). I also agree with more runoff likely having to be added at Mosport to enable these cars to run there.
Vancouver surely would be very nice but as the locals don't want the race back, that's probably it. Montreal has a fairly cheap contract with Bernie for F1 which is running out soon. In his negotiation tactics, he is currently threatening to take F1 away and replace Montreal with the shadow that is currently the New Jersey GP. If Montreal does not want to pay the exorbitant rates of F1, we might see IndyCar getting the race, at least for a one-off, no matter what happens in New Jersey. A nice fantasy would certainly be the running of the New Jersey GP track in IndyCar. Maybe they can run it as a support race to F1? |
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3 Apr 2013, 15:38 (Ref:3228618) | #31 | |||
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If the new contract with Bernie for Montreal is too expensive, which it might very well be, as well as the cost of the upgrades he wants, then it might behoove Montreal to host an IndyCar event? |
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4 Apr 2013, 02:26 (Ref:3228877) | #32 | |||
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They would need a chicane between Turns 1 and 2 and one at the top of Corner 4. They would also have to put in a Road Atlanta like 10-a/10-b complex before corner 8, and essentially Turn corners 8-9-10 into a five corner complex. Once they do that, the place is ready. The new spectator bridges do not make sightlines any different. The crest of Corner 2 is no more blind than it was before, and same with the crest of the hill on the backstretch. With Corner 2 and 8 having completely paved run-off now, it also has improved the safety aspect. As for Toronto. A jump from 15 thousand to 23 thousand is no big whoop. Especially when the fell back to 20 thousand last year. This race has no pizzaz anymore. Corner one in Toronto is only a passing area with a bonzai attempt. Same with corner 8 in Toronto. Corner 3 is the only realistic passing spot. Also, all three of those areas are horrible bumpy now, which takes away from the passing. Why do you think 90 percent of the passing takes place at Corner 3? The majority of those passing attempts end up being failed. Which leads to accidents, which leads to long, boring yellow flag periods. For all the supposed "great racing", there is a lot of butchered passing attempts and dull yellow flag periods. For all the supposed raving about how great the 2011 race was (it wasn't, it was dull as s**t), don't you find it funny that attendance fell by 3,000 from 2011 to 2012. Apparantly, 3,000 people felt just like I did. At least at Mid-Ohio (which hasn't produced the most exciting racing I'll admit) when the guys do make passing attempts at the Keyhole or going into Madness, the guys can make a clean pass because of the run-off, and when the passes don't go smoothly, they guys can often re-coup and salvage their race because of the run-off. Mid-Ohio has far less yellow flag periods than Toronto does, and is a longer race distance wise, and has featured some good battles throughout the field which fans don't see on TV because TV coverage often sucks because race directors don't show those good battles. As for attending Toronto in person, I stand behind what I said. The grandstand placements are terrible and viewing is limited. It is not a pleasant, fan friendly experience. It is far worse than it ever was back in the 80's and 90's for viewing. I was there in 2010, and I simply can't believe how poor the viewing is. I don't think the race organizers even look or care about how bad the viewing is. It's horrendous. Even the Turn Three stands - probably the best ones for action - allow so little actual track viewing and the amount of mesh fence you have to look through is pure overkill. Just brutal. Time to put the euthanizing needle in Toronto. It's done. Like I said. 20,000 for Indy Car in Toronto. About 70,000 at Mosport for the Camping World Trucks in September. The numbers will not lie, and it will be a very rude wake-up call for Indy Car that it is time to move on to Mosport, where THE INDY CARS BELONG!! |
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4 Apr 2013, 02:53 (Ref:3228884) | #33 | ||
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Toronto will continue holding the Honda Indy as long as Green-Savoree keep putting up the cash.
Last year was the first year the entire site was licensed under the new government regulations that allowed events like this to not restrict it to "beer gardens" - also the first year that two Ontario Craft Brewers were supplying the suds. This year we get new grandstands and lowered ticket prices. I'm liking the direction this is going in, especially after the fiasco 2009 was |
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4 Apr 2013, 04:03 (Ref:3228895) | #34 | ||
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It doesn't hurt either that Hinchcliffe has now gotten a win under his belt.
THTF, if it means real modifications to the track layout, then I'd rather that Mosport be left intact for the Sportscars. Also, paved run-off doesn't arrest errant vehicles, whereas a well-executed gravel trap does. (BTW, your chicanes destroy any challenge presented by Turns 2, 4, 8, and 9. They might also make things worse elsewhere, by, for instance, making Turn 3 flat-out. If the Indy Cars would have to ruin Mosport in order to run there, then they ought to stay the hell away from Mosport!) (As an example from the past, they had issues with cars going off at Woodcote, especially, at Silverstone. They added a chicane in 1974. When the GP returned in 1975, the drivers simply went off the road more frequently at a number of the other corners: most likely that Maggots, Club, and Abbey were particular culprits. Also, they had issues throughout the life of the Woodcote chicane with guys hitting the curbs and crashing at Woodcote anyway.) The drivers shouldn't NEED the run-off to make clean passes. If that's your issue, you ought to be *****ing about the bad driver behavior, NOT the tracks. Maybe you should also take issue with the Series not being able to handle yellows as quickly as perhaps they ought to be able to. I've seen wreck-fests at road courses (Road America 1996) and ovals (several IRL races at Phoenix) too. I have recordings of all but one or two Toronto races, and I am certain that there are more passes at Turn 1 than you describe. Also, the exit of Turn 8 is reasonably wide, and I don't recall anybody for sure being served into the tires on the outside; once or twice, somebody maybe took too wide a line letting someone by, and went in, but that's it. Andretti has been receptive to fan concerns at Milwaukee. There is no reason to think, when they are given the freedom to do what needs doing, that they won't act likewise when dealing with problems in Toronto. Last edited by Purist; 4 Apr 2013 at 04:10. |
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4 Apr 2013, 20:19 (Ref:3229278) | #35 | |||
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4 Apr 2013, 21:03 (Ref:3229299) | #36 | ||
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Brent, you're seriously overestimating top-end speeds on the Indy Cars. The highest speed on a non-oval for an Indy Car is presently at the end of the back straight at Sao Paulo, which is just over 0.9 of a mile. The highest speed seen there has been 188-mph, so 190+mph on the shorter, uphill, Mario Andretti Straight at Mosport is NOT going to happen.
As another example, about the fastest we see Indy Cars going on a permanent road course is at the end of the downhill back stretch at Mid Ohio. There, they top out at 173-mph or so. The last, and even the current, generation of Indy Cars are simply draggy as all get-out! As for Mosport, the 2007-08 LMP2s were flat-out through Turn 2 at ~160-mph, and flat-out through Turn 8 at ~175-mph. If those cars, with similar or slightly less horsepower, and being 120-145kg heavier, could do that, well, I don't think the Indy Cars will have a problem going through those turns with the pedal to the metal. (The Indy Cars are supposed to be 680kg or so in road racing trim, while the LMP2s were 800kg in 2007, and 825kg in 2008.) Indy Cars at Mosport speed estimates: 1. Entry to Turn 1- 150-mph 2. Exit of Turn 1- 155-mph 3. Entry to Turn 2- 160-mph 4. Apexes of Turn 2- 160-mph 5. Entry to Turn 3- 165-mph 6. Apex of Turn 3- 130-mph 7. Bottom of Turn 4- 175-mph 8. 1st Apex of Turn 5- 65-mph 9. 2nd Apex of Turn 5- 55-mph 10. Top of Andretti Straight- 180-mph 11. Apex of Turn 8- 175-mph 12. Apex of Turn 9- 160-mph 13. Apex of Turn 10- 85-mph The limit of adhesion and tire scrub keep your speed pretty steady through Turn 2, and cost you a few miles an hour through Turn 8. Turn 9 is partially a braking zone for Turn 10. Turn 3 can be a passing place, but it's tricky within the same class for Sportscars, and the Indy Cars will have an even lower reduction in speed to get through the corner. To cap things off about Mosport, the Indy Cars would be piling on a fair bit of downforce for Mosport, because of all those high-speed corners. This means they will NOT be optimized, by any means, for ultimate top-end speed. Just to hammer home the top speed thing, in general, one more time, the highest speed seen at St. Petersburg, just under two weeks ago, was 162-mph on the approach to Turn 1. Last edited by Purist; 4 Apr 2013 at 21:18. |
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6 Jun 2013, 18:20 (Ref:3258646) | #37 | |||
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Robin Miller wrote this week:
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Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
6 Jun 2013, 21:00 (Ref:3258721) | #38 | ||
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6 Jun 2013, 21:05 (Ref:3258722) | #39 | ||
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Road America needs to be on the schedule.
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6 Jun 2013, 22:29 (Ref:3258744) | #40 | ||
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FCP, I'm not sure what they could change at the fountain section. The city is pretty protective of the park. If it's like before, that section of road from Turn 3 to Turn 4 has to be covered over with turf the rest of the year. You can't reasonably bypass the fountain, and make a really long 'straight" heading to those final two turns. There's no escape road at the end of that, just walking paths.
MM9019, I'd second that, but unless the sanction fee goes down, I don't see it happening. |
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7 Jun 2013, 00:11 (Ref:3258767) | #41 | ||
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Definitely, so should Laguna Seca. Both are fantastic tracks, with great traditions and producing some excellent racing.
I personally think a return to tracks like this, with the right marketing has got to be a plus for the series. Last edited by bjohnsonsmith; 7 Jun 2013 at 00:19. |
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7 Jun 2013, 04:31 (Ref:3258803) | #42 | ||
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I hope a return to Cleveland one day.
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8 Jun 2013, 17:55 (Ref:3259421) | #43 | ||
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With the future of the Canadian GP up in the air, the IRL should seize the initiative and try and get Montreal on the calendar.
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8 Jun 2013, 18:13 (Ref:3259428) | #44 | ||
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Yes Indycar should definitely attempt this with Champcars recent races there in the early to mid 2000s.
However easier said than done and getting a promoter on board will be vital. What is Molson up to these days? |
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8 Jun 2013, 20:01 (Ref:3259461) | #45 | ||
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The Canada Grand Prix is a major attraction to Montreal, and a big advertisement around the world. IndyCar has a tiny audience in comparison, that's why it's a bad replacement. Now, it could take another weekend to replace Nationwide.
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Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed! by NaBUrean Prodooktionz naburu38.itch.io |
8 Jun 2013, 20:19 (Ref:3259465) | #46 | ||
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That's precisely why the series should go to Montreal, if it loses the Grand Prix. The series needs to raise its profile.
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8 Jun 2013, 22:25 (Ref:3259497) | #47 | |||
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Naturally IndyCar needs sponsors to help make the economics work, but it is on Mark Miles (and the Hulman-George bank account) to make the series visible to make it an attractive proposition for sponsors. Hopefully Derrick Walker's efforts on the competition side can attract more eyeballs, too. That is crucial. Chris |
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9 Jun 2013, 00:35 (Ref:3259532) | #48 | |||
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9 Jun 2013, 20:19 (Ref:3259928) | #49 | |
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Wolverines! |
9 Jun 2013, 20:45 (Ref:3259944) | #50 | ||
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Upon entry into the Bathurst 1000, it should be mandatory to view the compelling "Moffat - Man and the Mountain" film |
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