[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[knighty]

Originally Posted by rich07

Wonder if they're taking a look at the AER engine found in the back of the Lotus?

I think it goes without saying that AER will be aiming their new V6 twin Turbo directly at Rebellion, the engine had 3 years of simulation and is posting very respectable speed trap times - so I'm told...... in what appears to be a very under developed and car which is apparently significantly over weight.......apparently on its first race weekend the Lotus-LMP1 was 2nd fastest in a straight line, which means a lot to AER.......personally I have not seen the speed-trap data to validate this, does anyone have access to top speed data from the various races that Lotus competed in?

But power, torque, drivability are all well and good........but in years gone by the AER I4 and V8 engines have been hopelessly unreliable due to being designed too light and flimsy for a semi-structural LMP chassis installation........so really its down to AER to prove the new V6 is durable and can actually go the distance......which so far it seems to be doing ok!

[Mike E]

COTA
Toyota #8: 295.9kph (race)
Lotus: 294.3kph (joint 2nd) (race)
Rebellion #12: 293.5kph (4th) (race)

Fuji
Porsche #20: 316.7kph (FP3)
Rebellion #12: 309.5kph (4th) (race)
Lotus: 308.6kph (5th) (FP1)

Shanghai
Porsche #14: 315.8kph (race)
Rebellion #13: 308.6kph (3rd) (race)
Lotus: 304.2kph (6th) (race)

These absolute top speeds are probably not very informative. Median top speed would be better but this info is probably not available.

[Juntos]

How much is Rebellion Racing spending per season?

[TF110]

Lotus's top speed in the race was 304.2kmh on only a few occasions. Most of their speed trap figures were 298-300kmh. During their best stint in the race, they did over 300kh on 19 of 25 laps.

[carbon_titanium]

top speed doesn't mean anything... just the low downforce levels produced by the lotus lmp1. Nothing more. You can't be happy to have a huge top speed but an overall performance worse than lmp2!
anyway the AER engine surely has much more torque than the toyota engine, but for sure is heavier.

[Deleted]

Back in 2008, I somehow recall Ferrari equipped Force India having the best top speeds of all cars in F1 speed traps most of the time, yet they were easily the slowest of the bunch in lap times at every track. Same with the crap-wagon that was the Rocketsports Jaguar in latter half of 2011 IIRC. So it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Deal wit the Lotus AER looks to be the same, although as they are progressing even those top speed charts seems to be going downwards.

[TF110]

If theyre around 50-75kg overweight, thats not good for the lap times. Plus its a new car, with relatively no testing, no setup knowledge, unfamiliar drivers etc. It dont look good for competition to Rebellion. But if they stay around, hopefully the performance goes up.

[gustavobamba]

The Toyota engine Rebbelion use is very reliable, but the R-one lack testing and aero development IMHO.

Next year they will do better lap times, but the official team´s will improve eather… so the gap probably stay the same or even improve. The only thing that can help them is BOP :-)

[Deleted]

If both went to Sarthe today and run their cars there for couple of hours I'm sure the CLM would be somewhat closer to R-One than at these sprint tracks, and above LMP2 pace as well, however by the time they get to LM next year Rebellion should have (even) upper development advantage. Furthermore amplified if Kodewa sticks with one car over winter.

Regarding privateer-factory gap, yes ACO has ecently shown that they will re-bop the privateers on race by race pace or close to it, but even so it's not doing much, so it will be gigantic at LM again. With 10-11(/12) works cars in front and most of them unlikely to explode away, the expectations for overall result shouldn't be too high.

[Deleted]

Rebellion tweeted that they are travelling with "three cars"... so unless that third is a street limo for luxury, they have one extra mule with them just in case, on top of the spares? Strange. Maybe they show it off for potential customers. Or it's the old Lola dragged with them for display purposes like at LM.

Also, as one off Arctic Velvet logos have been replaced by their own products, for obvious reasons. Though, as said before, how they were able to run them at Le Mans is a bit of a mystery. Also, I wonder why they don't have these giant watch logos in their cars for full time - you know as they are obviously what Rebellion is actually all about - in addition to AV and the rest. I don't think many even acknowledge what Rebellion of Rebellion Racing actually even means.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Rebellion tweeted that they are travelling with "three cars"... so unless that third is a street limo for luxury, they have one extra mule with them just in case, on top of the spares? Strange. Maybe they show it off for potential customers. Or it's the old Lola dragged with them for display purposes like at LM.

There was a series of tweets from the team before the cars were shipped to CoTA and they mentioned four cars there: the two R-One race cars, a R-One spare tub and one of the old Lolas for display purposes.

[Deleted]

More case study of maximum straight line speed not directly corresponding with lap times as Rebellions had 30km/h faster top speed than those of Porsche, yet 3-4 seconds down from their best laps...

[Gingers4Justice]

Audi fastest of the P1-H cars, and Porsche struggling to do 260 clicks down that front straight. What's going on!?

[blankfile]

coasting i guess

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Chiana

More case study of maximum straight line speed not directly corresponding with lap times as Rebellions had 30km/h faster top speed than those of Porsche, yet 3-4 seconds down from their best laps...

Shades of the old days of ALMS when the Intersport Lola with massive restrictor breaks could fly down straights way way faster than anyone else - just couldn't go round corners.

One likes to think that Rebellion are aspiring to a little more than this.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by isynge

Shades of the old days of ALMS when the Intersport Lola with massive restrictor breaks could fly down straights way way faster than anyone else - just couldn't go round corners.

One likes to think that Rebellion are aspiring to a little more than this.

It isn't a secret that the Rebellion and CLM are very under developed compared to the factory cars, and are therefore faster in a straight line and much slower through the corners.
Not a question of aspiration really, more a question of finance and time.

[Deleted]

They were also fastest in FP2 speed traps, but the time gap to front was even more gigantic. Lotus figures look like Le Mans factory-privateer lap time differences.

Well I guess at LM Rebellion will have bit of a more of edge...

Oh and the old lovely Lola AERs, either awesome for couple of minutes before exploding, or just totally off the pace

[TF110]

Theyve been slightly closing the gap, but a big area where they lose out is acceleration. No 4wd for them. No 1000hp. But the top speed shows they coast a lot less, so theyre allowed to use more fuel per lap. They dont go nearly as far either. Sometimes 2 less laps per stint.

[Deleted]

Not advancing on light speed really.

Fastest Rebellion Q lap in comparison to overall pole sitter (averages)
Round 1) +1,511 seconds on 5,891km circuit (old Lola)
Round 2) +13,736 seconds on 7,004 km circuit (R-One debut)
Round 3) +7,974 seconds on 13,629km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 4) +5,572 seconds on 5,513km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 5) +4,865 seconds on 4,563 km circuit after mechanical gremlins (new BoP breaks)
Round 6) +4,131 seconds on 5,451 km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 7) +3,902 seconds on 5,412 km circuit
Round 8) N/A

Highest Rebellion finisher in comparison to overall winner
Round 1) +8 laps on 5,891km circuit (old Lola)
Round 2) +10 laps on 7,004 km circuit (R-One debut)
Round 3) +19 laps on 13,629km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 4) +8 laps on 5,513km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 5) +121 laps on 4,563 km circuit after mechanical gremlins etc (new BoP breaks)
Round 6) +8 laps on 5,451 km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 7) +7 laps on 5,412 km circuit
Round 8) N/A

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Not advancing on light speed really.

Fastest Rebellion Q lap in comparison to overall pole sitter (averages)
Round 1) +1,511 seconds on 5,891km circuit (old Lola)
Round 2) +13,736 seconds on 7,004 km circuit (R-One debut)
Round 3) +7,974 seconds on 13,629km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 4) +5,572 seconds on 5,513km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 5) +4,865 seconds on 4,563 km circuit after mechanical gremlins (new BoP breaks)
Round 6) +4,131 seconds on 5,451 km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 7) +3,902 seconds on 5,412 km circuit
Round 8) N/A

Highest Rebellion finisher in comparison to overall winner
Round 1) +8 laps on 5,891km circuit (old Lola)
Round 2) +10 laps on 7,004 km circuit (R-One debut)
Round 3) +19 laps on 13,629km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 4) +8 laps on 5,513km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 5) +121 laps on 4,563 km circuit after mechanical gremlins etc (new BoP breaks)
Round 6) +8 laps on 5,451 km circuit (new BoP breaks)
Round 7) +7 laps on 5,412 km circuit
Round 8) N/A

It should be noted, that the LMP1H cars are progressing also, so it is a huge task for Rebellion to become more competitive.
I really respect the Rebellion teams willingness to compete at this highest level.

[Deleted]

True, but the performance adjustments should counter balance for the works team upgrades (which towards the end of the season should be minimal anyway). The gap's come down a little bit, but for them to achieve anything overall in regular race it still requires for works cars to either retire or stay in the garage for 10 laps, plus for Rebellion to have perfect run on top of that.

Regardless - and even if their start of the season goals haven't gone to plan - it's commitment worth of saluting, year after year

[TF110]

Still a new car to them. I think next year theyll be down to 780kg based on what Bart Hayden claims that 775kg is the lowest it could go. Some more development and a bit more breaks it could be there. Lmp2 is not much slower (the Ligier at least). Gap is smaller between them than to the hybrid cars so far. I think the lmp2 ligier is possibly more developed. I wonder how the Dome will fair.

[Deleted]

If the ACO lowers the minimum weight to 775kg, the "Lotus" would be 100kg overweight (if they cannot lower theirs) in comparison to R-One

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

If the ACO lowers the minimum weight to 775kg, the "Lotus" would be 100kg overweight (if they cannot lower theirs) in comparison to R-One

Its up to them to get their car down to the minimum weight. Unless they go to the fia/aco for special bop.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Its up to them to get their car down to the minimum weight. Unless they go to the fia/aco for special bop.

That's what I meant, before it had been impossible (for the lack of better word) for Kodewa to decrease the weight of CLM to the level rules currently allow, so if ACO were to decrease the privateer weight to 775kg that'd prove even more problematic for 'Lotus'

As for 'special bop', I don't think there's been model-specific BoP in privateer (petrol) LMP1 for quite a few years now. Some in ALMS in the latter yes, but in ACO not so much. Which is as it should be, it's better for there to be class wide adjustments rather than model specific, makes it purer