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12 Apr 2020, 22:04 (Ref:3970430) | #126 | ||
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'Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari |
12 Apr 2020, 22:08 (Ref:3970432) | #127 | ||
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13 Apr 2020, 00:11 (Ref:3970453) | #128 | |
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So that was the answer I was expecting. And I understand the slip angle topic. My follow up questions were to be (1) Why having cars slide around is a good thing? (2) Why do we think engineers and drivers wouldn't try to avoid that at all costs. Yes, sometimes a bit of rotation by loosing grip is faster, but in general it is very much the slow way around.
In the end, I am making my usual point that trying to create rules that recreates the experience of a prior era is folly. Trying to recreate vintage F1 cars AND expecting it to somehow be natively inexpensive today is beyond folly. In my humble opinion that is. Richard |
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13 Apr 2020, 00:23 (Ref:3970455) | #129 | ||
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13 Apr 2020, 04:59 (Ref:3970482) | #130 | |||
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Quote:
I'm not sure Mr. Newey would be very pleased about this rule: Quote:
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13 Apr 2020, 05:07 (Ref:3970484) | #131 | ||
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Back in the 1960's engines were only 1500cc....maybe Formula Ford should be the 'NEW" F1?......
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13 Apr 2020, 05:12 (Ref:3970485) | #132 | ||
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Check out the 1973 British Grand Prix where four-wheel-drifting through the bends was standard practice: https://youtu.be/wpeM0Pzl0SQ?t=2276 A lot of fun indeed! At least in racing sim games, the cars on cross-ply tyres are a lot easier to drive too, as they are more progressive. (2) They avoid sliding now, because the radials generate peak grip at small slip angles.. sliding more than that causes a loss of grip. Whereas, the cross-plies still produced maximum grip at large slip angles. https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...33#post1122733 Genius! |
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13 Apr 2020, 07:16 (Ref:3970516) | #133 | |||
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I am not suggesting it should happen, but just illustrating how rules can be used . Crossplies belong on historic racing cars but what I would like to see happen is tyres being made sufficiently robust to last a race . It would be a far better endorsement of a tyre company's products than the current nonsense -' buy our tyres - they are so good they are worn out in 15 minutes !' - and would avoid the absurdity of a sprint race , such as a Grand Prix , being decided by how effectively wheel guns are deployed . F 1 is not a team sport, despite what some say , it is the driver who wins . So Porsche may win Le Mans, but Hamilton wins at Monaco and very few followers of the sport care two hoots about the constructor's championship- it is sometimes little more than a consolation prize. |
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13 Apr 2020, 09:13 (Ref:3970536) | #134 | ||
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Exactly, that’s the problem with having a spec tyre. Without any competition there is no need to make the best tyre they can. That’s why we’ve had these tyres that wear out quicker. And as you say hardly good advertising for it’s product |
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13 Apr 2020, 11:01 (Ref:3970557) | #135 | |||
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I will try to stop making a few specific point (as I am sure many are tired of hearing it). Those are that is that technical regulations are very poorly suited to drive budgets down or to address budget disparities and the impact that disparity has on the viability of F1. Trying to replicate the look, sounds, etc. of a prior era via technical regulations that allow development will not work. We need to try cost caps. And lastly, F1 is so screwed up, and has so many issues, that there is no single magical bullet. Multiple angles of attack must be taken. I will do my best to shut up on this now. Richard |
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13 Apr 2020, 15:11 (Ref:3970590) | #136 | ||
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i cant imagine how much a tire supplier would charge to actually make the best tires possible?
honesty i dont even know what the best racing tire would look like...would it last forever, run fast, and still provide glue like grip? would it be possible to flat spot it? should driver mistakes still be punished by increased wear rates because the 'best ever' tire would not allow for that right? basically right now we have a rule set that allows Merc and Ferrari to spend as much money as they want to build for themselves the best possible race car they can within the rules box...and the competition level has massively suffered for it. obviously i am just speculating, but for me, spending more money chasing perfection and endless refinements is the problem...not the solution. |
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13 Apr 2020, 15:18 (Ref:3970592) | #137 | ||
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The 'best' tyre, would not be worth it for any manufacturer.
I'm pretty certain it would be possible to build a tyre that would last a full race distance, and give consistent levels of grip from start to finish. But there are a couple of reasons why that would not be good: A) - the tyres would never be an issue, so removes that part of tactical variance from the grid. B) - because they just exist, and are never mentioned in the context of the race, the tyre manufacturer gets less publicity. |
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13 Apr 2020, 16:11 (Ref:3970603) | #138 | ||
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Nobody is interested in tyres . Strategic choices and similar guff were a failed attempt to inject jeopardy into a dull show. Tyres are only interesting when they are slicks , and it has just started to pour.
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13 Apr 2020, 16:30 (Ref:3970604) | #139 | ||
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How are or should tires be less interesting than, let's say, an engine or gearbox?
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13 Apr 2020, 16:44 (Ref:3970611) | #140 | |
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If they want tyre supplier(s) to be mentioned then they just need to have open tyre competition. Would also mix up the competition a bit.
Although that is now resisted. Presumably on “cost” - which is bullshit for “if we have a tyre war the companies pay the teams or provide free tyres, whereas currently the tyre supplier pays FOM for the right to sell tyres to the teams.” |
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13 Apr 2020, 20:40 (Ref:3970640) | #141 | ||
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When it went to one tyre it was also said that it would be fairer as one team wouldn’t be favoured over others as a tyre manufacturer concentrated on maximising their chances of winning by developing for one particular car.
Some also didn’t like how it may mean that a team has no chance because they are on the wrong tyre. |
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13 Apr 2020, 21:23 (Ref:3970641) | #142 | |||
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'Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari |
13 Apr 2020, 23:20 (Ref:3970649) | #143 | |||
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I can't remember why full race tyres were abandoned... I'll need to look up articles from the time. The rule could have been abandoned because of lobbying from Ferrari and Bridgestone, as their full race tyres were rubbish. Or it could have been because of the US Grand Prix fiasco. Quote:
There seems to be less variation in the performance between Akebono, Project Mu and Brembo brakes, for example. Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 13 Apr 2020 at 23:32. |
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14 Apr 2020, 00:08 (Ref:3970659) | #144 | |||
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14 Apr 2020, 01:04 (Ref:3970665) | #145 | |||
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There are some third party parts that if just made the same it would be the same situation for everyone. A display unit or something like that would be the extreme at one end. There are others that will perform better on some cars that others. I think a tyre is the most extreme of that later example. A tyre can be matched to the characteristics of a car. |
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14 Apr 2020, 01:37 (Ref:3970669) | #146 | ||
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Richard |
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14 Apr 2020, 02:23 (Ref:3970672) | #147 | |||
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However that year when tyre stops were banned wasn’t directly linked to grooved tyres. It meant it was very Michelin dominated and there was the incident with Kimi trying to make a flat spotted tyre last. People could take that it was challenging. |
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14 Apr 2020, 05:07 (Ref:3970678) | #148 | |
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Everyone used to be interested in tyres, in fact it was most probably the prime thing to get right and all the major teams had their own tyre supplier. It was the lack of interest in developing tyres for Tyrell by all the tyre companies that sank the six wheel concept and it was never given a fair go because of that. Tyres were never used as an equaliser by the F1 community until Bernie decided it would be good thing.
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14 Apr 2020, 07:03 (Ref:3970690) | #149 | ||
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I acknowledge that back in the day a tyre war was no bad thing . But the current situation - with a single make tyre designed to wear out , and with the rules prescribing the different compounds which have to be used are just absurd .
Engines are far, far more interesting - and now we have effectively the same engine being made by 4 different firms. It's instructive to look at a grid from 30 years ago - 7 different engines -from V8 via V10 to V12 |
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14 Apr 2020, 09:26 (Ref:3970710) | #150 | |
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The tyre war was good because it allowed a lesser team to upset the odds. The best example being Damon Hill nearly winning in the Arrows in Hungary. Now that was a race that was both great to watch and heartbreaking at the same time.
Another thing is there would be less chance of playing safe with the tyre compounds due to the competition. And the competition would help sell the product. I think that's why Bridgestone left And let's also see an end to compulsory tyre stops, would be fun to see if which drivers can make the tyres last and which would take a stop, even for tactical reasons |
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