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Old 23 Apr 2020, 08:56 (Ref:3972347)   #76
BrentJackson
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Originally Posted by truebeliever View Post
However, in a post Virus world, they may just have to re-think that business model.
Thanks to the coronavirus, there is no maybe now. And that's a problem for IMSA too, as they have to live with similar regulations, unless they want to abandon the connection with the ACO, as they will dragged kicking and screaming to the world of privateer-supported sports car racing.

The question is what that will be. Chiana's points about it ultimately being taken over by a vast collection of Oreca 07s with new badges do have some point to it, but I'm not entirely sure that will be what happens because the manufacturers will not always be there forever and having Ginetta and Dallara and Riley and Multimatic leaving isn't gonna be good for the ACO for a variety of reasons, and sooner or later that will start to get back to making the teams and their supporters unhappy, which then rapidly becomes a problem for the race itself.

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Maybe motor racing on a smaller scale will work .... but given real estate costs, track maintenance, and the cost of media contracts (not sure TV will be a big force 20 years from now) I am not sure that motor racing, as it has been for the last century, will exist much any more.

It is a question of fan base, ultimately. There have to be enough fans for sponsors to be willing to fund teams, even privateers ... or enough billionaire enthusiasts willing to bankroll teams at a loss for the fun of it. Sponsors are the only sustainable cash source ... and as the fan base shrinks (how many 18-25-year-olds are excited by cars anymore?) sponsor value shrinks ....
I think part of this problem is the wide ways one can get entertainment these days for cheap. We've all seen what the internet can do, and television viewers for many of these series has been nearly non-existent, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Are there enough people with interest out there? I think there it is, but the price of admission is too high (as you mentioned, when a Trans-Am car can lap as fast as a GT3 car, there is clearly an issue there) and there isn't enough advertising and get-out-the-name out there. IMO, IMSA would be wise to make sure TV networks know that they will be streaming races online at the same time, so be prepared for people to do that (And yes, TV may be irrelevant twenty years from now, or it may have merged with the internet in a hybrid of the two styles), and directly also broadcast it onto games - and use trackers to know where the cars are on the track, so someone playing Gran Turismo or Forza Motorsport can race along with it, feeling like they are in the event. Once VR is commonplace in the world, have suitable cameras in the race cars so one can feel like they are riding shotgun in the race cars.

What says to me there is interest in the sport is the tens of millions of copies games like the aforementioned series manage to sell. Also, ideas like Nissan's GT Academy are absolute genius as well - how about it, IMSA? A competition in one of the games (or hell do both) where the best competitor gets a shot at racing in IMSA for real, perhaps in a GT4 car to prove their up for it, or have the best dozen or so come to test out real GT4 cars and get IMSA licenses, allowing them to legitimately seek out IMSA rides?

Young people have in recent times been hamstrung more than anything by money and distance. We are, when accounted for inflation, considerably poorer than our parents. That's never stopped me, but I can see why that would stop others. The coronavirus may have, in a perverse silver lining, changed that, as the demands for better pay and conditions for people who are still working are likely to keep fighting long after the virus is gone. If finances improve for the young generation, that's likely to see more of them go to racetracks, both now and in the future....

As far as the rich enthusiasts, people like James Glickenhaus, Lawrence Stroll, Ed Brown and Laurence Tomlinson prove those people are still out there. And there has been a lot written about the generation of app-made millionaires that have made Northern California an expensive place to live, and many of them having a love of cars. Maybe we need to get a lot of those people out to races at Laguna Seca for the whole experience - a ride in a DPi, a shot at driving a GT4 (or maybe even GT3) car, a helmet and driving suit, seeing the tech in an IMSA car, whatever works. Who knows, it might make them buy a GT car and get out there....

As far as sponsors for the series, the cost of competing in the series is half the issue, its also the return for their investment, which means lots of people watching great races. IMO, the best way to get that attention is big and diverse grids and constant action, with the ability to keep people watching all the time.

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Fans used to pay for the tracks, but with real estate values rising, how many track owners are going to make enough money selling tickets to cover the cost of the tracks? How many will sell out to developers?
This is a problem for some, but not others. I can see it being issue at a track like Road Atlanta or Circuit of the Americas that is closer to a major city, but one result of the economic problems that exist now is going to a major drop in property prices, which will make selling out to a developer much less attractive. But that doesn't make your point of selling tickets less valid, but in the short term I wouldn't be too worried about that, even if in the medium-term its much more worthy of consideration.

I'd be happy to see a bunch of full-on two- and three-liter normally aspirated sports racers and GTs going at it .... a lot more affordable than all the "cutting-edge", change-every-season regulations we have now. But how many people will be happy watching cars going by slower than they used to?

HERE is the major problem. Think about this: One Riley Daytona Prototype owned by Chip Ganassi Racing raced for twelve years with Lexus, BMW and Ford power, and one of Dyson Racing's Riley and Scott Mark IIIs racked up over 45,000 racing miles, in four different race series - IMSA, USRRC, ALMS and Grand-Am. Were these cars slower at the end of their lives? Not really - hell, thanks to regulation changes, the Ganassi DP was undoubtedly much faster. Do the cars have to be replaced every four years, if that much? Would a 2014-vintage Acura ARX-03b not be impressive today? If somebody built a Riley or Coyote DP with C8 Corvette lights and detailing, or a Ganassi Riley with the detailing from the Ford GT, would that not still be incredibly fast? Would a previous-generation GTE or GT3 car still be quite a machine to see?

As was mentioned earlier, if a Trans-Am car can make the same pace as the GT3 car, or an older GT3 car runs at similar pace to the new one, why not let the old one race? What would be the problem with Trans-Am TA1 cars joining the field in IMSA? Grand-Am did that for years, and they were never a problem there.

What about letting the Oreca FLM09s back, but with Oreca 03R bodywork and a choice of production-based V8s of similar-displacement to the old engine that are readily available - Chevrolet LT2, Ford Voodoo, Chrysler 6.1 Hemi, Nissan VK56, Toyota 3UR, et cetera - and let them race once again? (This assumes you don't just let the LMP3s into IMSA, but I think the evolved-FLM09 with the roaring V8s is a cheaper - and allows more freedom - option.) And what about the current DPis not specifically having to change the bodywork, just the engines and electronics and gearboxes to go with them?

Before we go to a field of smaller-engine cars for IMSA - large engines are still quite common in North America, and will be for some time to come still - why not simply let the cars we have extend their lives? They don't have to last forever, of course, but making suitable race cars cheaper and more accessible is certainly not going to hurt IMSA. (And in all fairness, the DeltaWing showed that a two-liter-or-less race car can go quite fast indeed....)

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Shoot, I would be fine with stock-block engines, given the degree of sophistication out there now .... just wrap them in light little bodies, insane power/weight ratios .... but how do you excite a new fan who doesn't own or ever want to own a car to begin with?
People who don't want cars won't be race fans, so they don't matter in the discussion. What matters are the fans to come. They do exist, otherwise nobody would bother making racing games for all kinds of platforms. The challenge IMO is getting them hooked early on. Games can help. Greater accessibility to the races on multiple platforms can also help.

Beyond that, what else? Advertise on college and university campuses, and get college and university engineering departments to partner up with race teams? Maybe a challenge to build a DeltaWing-style competitor that would be legal to race in IMSA?

The world has changed, yes. But priority number one needs to be getting more cars on the track to get greater action to get more people watching. That can be done, if IMSA has the will.
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Old 23 Apr 2020, 11:50 (Ref:3972377)   #77
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Say it louder for the people in the back to hear. All of what he said
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Old 23 Apr 2020, 12:37 (Ref:3972383)   #78
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Very good post, Mr. BrentJackson.
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Old 23 Apr 2020, 12:52 (Ref:3972384)   #79
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Methinks "(how many 18-25-year-olds are excited by cars anymore?)" says it all. I and most real fans I've known over the years were into cars from a very young age, dreaming about what we would have when we could drive.

We had no games, no racing on TV, and.......eeeek! ....no computers. We were into cars and racing followed. We looked at magazines watched older "kids" racing up and down the streets, or working on their cars under a tree...pulleys and ropes hanging from a big branch.. It doesn't happen anymore...... well, okay, some have scanners and/or replace chips.....whooppee...... and others pay somebody to do an upgrade......WOW! Soooo impressive.......nobody (nearly, anyway) picks up a wrench (let alone know what to do with one in the first place).
The love affair is nearly over and there's no (sorrowfully) turning back.

The kit and spec cars, BoPing, and all other means of "leveling of the playing field" (wings that open in F1? What the .... is that???) has just been a
band-aid in a feeble attempt to attract newbies and keep those with a short attention span (the masses these days it seems) watching
with the "choreographed" excitement...................It isn't working.

I'm old and have enjoyed the racing "ride" (spectating and participating)........face it, the end is near........

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Old 26 Apr 2020, 04:56 (Ref:3972908)   #80
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Methinks "(how many 18-25-year-olds are excited by cars anymore?)" says it all. I and most real fans I've known over the years were into cars from a very young age, dreaming about what we would have when we could drive.

We had no games, no racing on TV, and.......eeeek! ....no computers. We were into cars and racing followed. We looked at magazines watched older "kids" racing up and down the streets, or working on their cars under a tree...pulleys and ropes hanging from a big branch.. It doesn't happen anymore...... well, okay, some have scanners and/or replace chips.....whooppee...... and others pay somebody to do an upgrade......WOW! Soooo impressive.......nobody (nearly, anyway) picks up a wrench (let alone know what to do with one in the first place).
The love affair is nearly over and there's no (sorrowfully) turning back.

The kit and spec cars, BoPing, and all other means of "leveling of the playing field" (wings that open in F1? What the .... is that???) has just been a
band-aid in a feeble attempt to attract newbies and keep those with a short attention span (the masses these days it seems) watching
with the "choreographed" excitement...................It isn't working.

I'm old and have enjoyed the racing "ride" (spectating and participating)........face it, the end is near........
One can hope for the past and get nowhere, or they can adapt and survive. Coronavirus is gonna lay a whupping on many different race series around the world, and the realities of the automotive industry of the world will make that damage more painful still. But regardless, sitting still will get the world of racing cars nowhere.

Beyond that, the comment about how changing computer components is less of an impact than wrenching on something IMO is a bit foolish. You can do incredible things with electronics in cars in modern times, and those electronics make possible many aspects of the amazing performance of modern cars. Whether its technowizards like the Nissan GT-R, examples of the finest design like the Pagani Zonda, cars debuting new technologies like the Tesla Model S or Koenigsegg Regera or simply a muscle car that can make 450+ horsepower but get 30+ highway miles per gallon like the new Chevrolet Corvette, electronics have made these (amazing) cars possible. And while yes, some people have absolutely no earthly clue how to work on modern cars, some do know how to work on the modern cars of today, and I'm quite sure people then didn't have a clue how to wrench on cars back then either.
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Old 26 Apr 2020, 06:15 (Ref:3972919)   #81
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Say it louder for the people in the back to hear. All of what he said
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Very good post, Mr. BrentJackson.
Thank you, gentlemen. I think now, since none of us are racing or doing anything to make the money we need to go racing or go watch racing, would be the time to decide what the future should be, and what the best plan of attack for new regulations for IMSA.

Frankly, I'm inclined (knowing the likelihood the manufacturers are unlikely to have the desire, and in some cases the ability, to spend money in sports car racing to the degree they were pre-coronavirus) to walk back every regulation change going back to 2014, and make IMSA's new rules look like this:

Prototype (P)
All closed-roof prototypes that were or are legal for IMSA competition going back to 2014 land in this category.

I know some people are going to loathe the idea of the old-school Daytona Prototypes having a new lease on life, but IMO the field needs to be made as open as possible. If Michelin stays in the series, have them make tires for the DeltaWing (if it shows up to race) and a different specification of tires for the heavier DPs if they show up to race.

All DPis would be legal for competition, and any new competitor for DPi would no longer be required to make bodywork designs for the cars, though this would be strongly encouraged as it would allow for the makers to seek aerodynamic advantage in the cars. But if they don't want to, they don't have to.

2014-2017 era closed-roof LMP2s (Ligier JS P2, Acura ARX-04b, Oreca 05, etc) would also be legal for Prototype competition, with the same sorts of engines they ran in those years. Those entrants should bear in mind that the power of the cars has stepped up since then, so they may wish to get a little more power from the engines. If they cannot be turned to create enough power, than the rules will be adjusted to allow it, and aero improvements will act on similar basis. A 2014 Ligier JS P2 should be allowed to show up at an IMSA event and, everything else being equal, be competitive.

All elements of BoP will be centered on the DPis - the older LMP2s will be allowed more power and the DPs will probably be allowed a lot more power and perhaps some more grip to compensate for the extra speed of the DPis. The post-2017 LMP2s would be ideally be fitted with a new V10 (or V12 if it will fit comfortably) variant of the Gibson engine the ACO-spec cars use, as pulling the DPis back to their level now would be almost impossible and unfair to those teams. However, we do not want the LMP2 runners to be off the pace if at all possible.

Sport Prototype (SP)
All open-top LMP2s are legal here, as well as the Oreca FLM09. These cars will be designed for the use of production-based naturally-aspirated engines of up to 6200cc. (This works especially well for LMP2 cars designed for the use of the Nissan VK45, as the VK56 engine would be nearly a direct replacement.) The FLM09 cars would get substantial bodywork modifications to improve their downforce in order to compete with the full-on LMP2s. For safety reasons, all Prototype 2 entrants will be required to use an aeroscreen that covers at least the top of the drivers' helmet and protects both seats, and any intakes that are covered as a result of this can be moved without penalty in order to improve the cars' performance.

The idea of these cars is simple - as the open-top cars tend to be older designs, they tend to be less costly, and the obvious differences make it easy to justify pushing these cars into the second prototype class. The FLM09s ideally would gain the bodywork from the Oreca 03R for their improvements.

BoP would be centered on the upgraded FLM09s here, but the plan is to make these cars' engines be as simple and unstressed as possible, to allow them to see lots of racing before they need to be rebuilt or replaced to reduce cost. Ideally, the top two prototype categories would be open tire competition, but in the short term its probably better to keep Michelin as a spec supplier for now.

Challenger Prototype (CP)
LMP3, pretty much. Ideally you'd be able to fill in the grid with the top two classes if at all possible, but if not, LMP3 would be your backup plan, as there is plenty of these around. All LMP3-legal cars would be legal in Prototype 3. This category will be a spec tire class. Later on, once the series' rules are stable enough to allow it, Prototype 3 will move to production-based turbocharged four-cylinder engines, but that is for future consideration.

All prototype categories will allow for new-build versions of the cars they race with, not just older models - if somebody wants a new souped-up FLM09, they should be able to order it. (Whether Oreca will build it is a different matter, but IMSA won't stop a 2020-build FLM09 from competing.) Eventually once the series' car counts and stability is not an issue, we'll start considering moving into changing over the rules for Prototype 2 as well, but the priority now for IMSA should be getting everybody out there, in large numbers to have a wild and competitive field.

Grand Touring Evolution (GTE)
ACO GTE, more or less, but with vehicle age limits are tossed out of the window, so if somebody wants to bring a Corvette C7.R to race against the new C8.R, they should be more than welcome to, and there are no limits against teams racing cars no longer raced by the factory teams, such as the BMW Z4 and M6, Ferrari 458 and the first-generation Aston Martin Vantage GTE. In addition, GTE cars abandoned by manufacturers, such as the SRT Viper GTS-R and Lotus Evora GTE, would be quite welcome to compete in Grand Touring 1.

In addition, the moving of teams and cars into this category from Grand Touring 2 in order to keep factory teams competing against other factory teams should be encouraged, so teams like the Vasser-AIM Lexus and the Compass360 McLaren squads, which are de facto factory teams, can be nudged into competing against other factory teams.

Grand Touring Challenger (GTC)
If its ever been legal in FIA GT3, this is where it goes and its legal, in addition to cars built to Super GT GT300 rules using their developed 'mother chassis' rules and to Grand Am GT rules (think Stevenson Camaro or the GX Mazda 6), though the latter will surely need to be sped up some to compete against the rest of Grand Touring 2 field.

There are no expirations on the homologations here, and there are limits on "Evolution kits" and other developments. GT300 and GA GT cars would be made to BoPed to work with the GT3 cars, and older GT3 cars are perfectly legal. In addition, the 'manufacturer fee' IMSA was changing before this goes out the window.

All-American Grand Touring (AAGT)
Trans-Am Series' TA1 cars go here, with the additional caveat that they would be slowed down slightly (through an engine power reduction) in order to not have them banging into the GTE category's cars all the time, and to reduce the cost of competition by reducing the number of engine rebuilds and replacements. Ideally I'd also make it possible for these cars to have bigger body fenders and larger rear wings to improve their grip while also giving a more aggressive look, but that would be a development for later.

All AAGT cars must have headlights, taillights and windshield wipers (many don't have these) and are not allowed any form of stability control, though all GT categories allow engine-based traction control.

Again, GTE would be an open-tire category. In the interest of making it easier for teams from other categories, Pirelli tires would be legal in AAGT and GTC in addition to Michelins, in order to allow World Challenge and Trans-Am teams to have an easier time trying their hand at IMSA events.

The plan should be to make it easier for people to race in IMSA, no matter their choice of chariot. Once IMSA has a sizable (and varied) field, this would be an advertising point - a pic (or video) of the many different cars in the series, with the tagline "Gladiators choose their weapons. Our gladiators, they choose their race cars. Choose wisely, young racer."

Last edited by BrentJackson; 26 Apr 2020 at 06:16. Reason: Editing Goofs
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Old 26 Apr 2020, 06:53 (Ref:3972926)   #82
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One can hope for the past and get nowhere, or they can adapt and survive. Coronavirus is gonna lay a whupping on many different race series around the world, and the realities of the automotive industry of the world will make that damage more painful still. But regardless, sitting still will get the world of racing cars nowhere.

Beyond that, the comment about how changing computer components is less of an impact than wrenching on something IMO is a bit foolish. You can do incredible things with electronics in cars in modern times, and those electronics make possible many aspects of the amazing performance of modern cars. Whether its technowizards like the Nissan GT-R, examples of the finest design like the Pagani Zonda, cars debuting new technologies like the Tesla Model S or Koenigsegg Regera or simply a muscle car that can make 450+ horsepower but get 30+ highway miles per gallon like the new Chevrolet Corvette, electronics have made these (amazing) cars possible. And while yes, some people have absolutely no earthly clue how to work on modern cars, some do know how to work on the modern cars of today, and I'm quite sure people then didn't have a clue how to wrench on cars back then either.
Everything stated above is quite true.

I don't know if it is a dispute with my post or not (tho' I presume it is as you quoted it), and if so, I think you misunderstood my intent.

As in my "The love affair is nearly over and there's no (sorrowfully) turning back.", I realize there is no reason to "hope for the past". I agree as I don't have a DeLorean, let alone a flux capacitor to install in one.

As in my second paragraph, I believe youth's love affair, and the desire to do hands on modification, is fading fast.
I understand the improvements in technology and performance; but even more performance could easily be extracted mechanically (cams, heads, exhaust etc. etc.) along with electronics, as the manufacturers are still bound by the limitations they have, as always. The parts are still available, you just don't see nearly as many "backyard mechanics" as you used to. The interest just isn't there.

Regarding "adapting and surviving", to each his own. I, and many others obviously, do by finding other things to do, as witnessed by the broadcasters attempts to keep the stands off camera so as not to show the empty seats that they used to intentionally pan, announcing "proudly" how "It's another sellout crowd!!!".

The latest crop of citizens of the planet earth are "adapting" by losing interest in the automobile, period; that's the bottom line. To a larger and larger percentage of the population, it's just a means of transportation.

I enjoyed auto racing, watching and participating myself, (from '75 on, IMSA in particular), it had a good, approximate, hundred year run. It's been on the downturn for at least a couple of decades now.

'Can't stop change, just ask Alvin Toffler...
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Old 26 Apr 2020, 17:15 (Ref:3972982)   #83
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Sadly, and I've said it before (though I layed off of it due to IMSA streamlining/standardizing on DPI and the ACO being slow to learn their lesson, though LMP Hypercar/LMDH hopefully promises to make more sense than 2014-20 LMP1), IMSA and the ACO should've just left the rules for 2013 alone for a few years.

The ACO wanting to reinvent the wheel and reinvent Group C got us to where we are now (along with them pandering to OEMs who may leave if the cost to play gets too much to justify). And IMSA trying to merge LMP2 with DP caused as many (or more) problems than it fixed. On the latter, they should've (IMO) just made everyone run the wide Michelin tires that became surplus after the LMP1 cars got made narrower in 2014. At least then both the DP and LMP2 teams would've been shafted the same degree with tires that didn't work well with either car, and would've required mods for the wheels and tires to even fit on the cars.

IMSA didn't cover themselves with glory in '14 for sure, but neither IMO did the ACO. The latter organization has, had and will probably always have the LM24 as their trump card. But I do think that sometimes that blinds them to the realities of sanctioning a championship. You have to remember what a Porsche Motorsports official said off the record at LM in '17. That LM is what matters, and until the ACO actually make it appealing, not a lot of teams (factory teams especially) will give a damn about a championship. Hence the ACO browbeating with giving auto-invites to LM if you're a full time WEC team and charging teams fees to op out of races aside from force majure.

Problem with all of this is that, one, we're on the outside looking in, so we automatically have a different perspective (which sadly actually makes us actually seem more level headed and intelligent than some at the ACO and IMSA at the time and maybe even now), and two, the old demon of hindsight being 20/20.
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Old 29 Apr 2020, 09:50 (Ref:3973533)   #84
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Very good post, Mr. BrentJackson.
Amen to that!

I think the future survival of prototype racing in America, will fare better under IMSA, than will Europe under the ACO.

IMSA will likely adopt a more open minded attitude, that in a immediate post virus world, there will not be any place for a ''new, expensive'' category, be that LMDh or Hypercar. I can see the current regs being opened up, in an effort to attract more entries that will not otherwise be there, ie: as was suggested in other post, older cars.

The ACO on the other hand, by releasing the regs for Hypercar, are signalling that they are happy to continue down the Dodo route, and disregard any logical common sense.

Getting any teams who have the finances to go racing is the first issue. NOT creating new classes requiring an even bigger investment. I think any future race meeting will need to perhaps have less different classes, and try have fuller fields to race on the same program. People who are still thinking that very soon things will be back to normal how it was before the virus..............are either incredibly stupid, or perhaps work for the ACO!...
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Old 29 Apr 2020, 12:27 (Ref:3973585)   #85
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ACO is basically funded by Le Mans, which is so legendary it could exist as a stand-alone. ACO can basically ignore what is happening elsewhere.

FIA is funded by national and smaller auto clubs from around the world.

IMSA is a business.

People whose paychecks depend on noticing reality tend to notice reality ......
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Old 29 Apr 2020, 13:28 (Ref:3973611)   #86
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Originally Posted by jimclark View Post
Methinks "(how many 18-25-year-olds are excited by cars anymore?)" ...nobody (nearly, anyway) picks up a wrench (let alone know what to do with one in the first place)...
This notion that people became racing fans when they started driving at 18 (or whatever age it was for you at the time) or when they "picked up a wrench" has never seemed to be anything associated with reality for me.
Do you remember ever not liking racing from the time you first started seeing pictures or the occasional film or TV clips of it (again depending on the time period when you were a kid)? I certainly wasn't driving on the road or working on my own vehicle when I was five years old. Who suddenly starts watching racing at 18 or 20 when they've had no interest in it before? Aren't your interests set by that age? And why did all "car people" I knew as a kid say stuff like "isn't just standing beside the road and watching cars go past pretty much the same thing as watching racing?"
Saying "picking up a wrench" is what got someone interested in watching racing strikes me as saying working in a slaughterhouse is what got someone interested in eating steaks and hamburgers.

Last edited by HighParker; 29 Apr 2020 at 13:39.
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Old 29 Apr 2020, 14:55 (Ref:3973623)   #87
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This notion that people became racing fans when they started driving at 18 (or whatever age it was for you at the time) or when they "picked up a wrench" has never seemed to be anything associated with reality for me.
Do you remember ever not liking racing from the time you first started seeing pictures or the occasional film or TV clips of it (again depending on the time period when you were a kid)? I certainly wasn't driving on the road or working on my own vehicle when I was five years old. Who suddenly starts watching racing at 18 or 20 when they've had no interest in it before? Aren't your interests set by that age? And why did all "car people" I knew as a kid say stuff like "isn't just standing beside the road and watching cars go past pretty much the same thing as watching racing?"
Saying "picking up a wrench" is what got someone interested in watching racing strikes me as saying working in a slaughterhouse is what got someone interested in eating steaks and hamburgers.
You misunderstood. My pernt is that the casual fan is what you and I are talking about that is causing the change in auto racing. They are more interested in "good" (actually close) racing. They haven't a clue what makes the cars go and could care less. They just want an 'exciting" battle. My test when talking to a stranger at a race is to simply ask if they know the difference between a roll bar and an anti roll bar.
This is what the manufacturers and any sponsors want as there is more of those eyeballs who aren't interested in the tecchnology and engineering involved resulting in wonderful identical kit cars (IndyCar), spec cars (NASCAR), BoPed cars (sports car racing) and all the "must last so and so races" (cripes, even F1...) or else penalization "supposedly" to lower costs when it actually costs more to design and develop such critters.
All the above actuality makes for more racing billboards running closer together (more airtime with "good" (orchestrated by said rules) close) racing) running longer for the short attention spanned/uninitiated, fans; and for the sponsors.
I never said "picking up a wrench" got anyone interested....it's what makes a REAL auto racing fan just that. They have a clue what it's really about. Not just a scripted show.

Racing used to be a display of the best designed, engineered, built, and developed....fastest.....that teams could produce (and yes, cranked to the limit, they often broke). That is what "auto racing" is about; not just an excercise in advertising.
Are, for instance, faster dominant runners required to wear weights on their backs to "level the playing field" to put on a better "show"? (etc., etc.) No. They also aren't big banners running (or whatever) around.

I know, I'm a broken record but I'm watching "racing" go down the tubes and maybe, just maybe, some enlightenment will sink in.......
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Old 29 Apr 2020, 19:36 (Ref:3973681)   #88
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You misunderstood. My pernt is that the casual fan is what you and I are talking about that is causing the change in auto racing. They are more interested in "good" (actually close) racing. They haven't a clue what makes the cars go and could care less. They just want an 'exciting" battle. My test when talking to a stranger at a race is to simply ask if they know the difference between a roll bar and an anti roll bar.

This is what the manufacturers and any sponsors want as there is more of those eyeballs who aren't interested in the tecchnology and engineering involved resulting in wonderful identical kit cars (IndyCar), spec cars (NASCAR), BoPed cars (sports car racing) and all the "must last so and so races" (cripes, even F1...) or else penalization "supposedly" to lower costs when it actually costs more to design and develop such critters.

All the above actuality makes for more racing billboards running closer together (more airtime with "good" (orchestrated by said rules) close) racing) running longer for the short attention spanned/uninitiated, fans; and for the sponsors.

I never said "picking up a wrench" got anyone interested....it's what makes a REAL auto racing fan just that. They have a clue what it's really about. Not just a scripted show.



Racing used to be a display of the best designed, engineered, built, and developed....fastest.....that teams could produce (and yes, cranked to the limit, they often broke). That is what "auto racing" is about; not just an excercise in advertising.

Are, for instance, faster dominant runners required to wear weights on their backs to "level the playing field" to put on a better "show"? (etc., etc.) No. They also aren't big banners running (or whatever) around.



I know, I'm a broken record but I'm watching "racing" go down the tubes and maybe, just maybe, some enlightenment will sink in.......
Yeah, and I've got a great bridge to sell you. Racing was ALWAYS about selling something. Either your car, your team, your build. The fact this fastest and best MYTH persists baffles me. It's never been accurate and has always been laughed at by all parties from racing.
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Old 29 Apr 2020, 20:00 (Ref:3973690)   #89
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[QUOTE=Maelochs;3973585]ACO is basically funded by Le Mans, which is so legendary it could exist as a stand-alone. ACO can basically ignore what is happening elsewhere.


REALLY?? You think??

Simple answer to that is, let the ACO withdraw from every racing event involved with Le Mans, all the races on the Bugatti track, and just do the 24 hour, under the post virus economic world.

See how long they survive only with the 24 and very depleted fields. That IS reality.
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Old 29 Apr 2020, 21:35 (Ref:3973701)   #90
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[QUOTE=truebeliever;3973690]
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ACO is basically funded by Le Mans, which is so legendary it could exist as a stand-alone. ACO can basically ignore what is happening elsewhere.
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REALLY?? You think??



Simple answer to that is, let the ACO withdraw from every racing event involved with Le Mans, all the races on the Bugatti track, and just do the 24 hour, under the post virus economic world.



See how long they survive only with the 24 and very depleted fields. That IS reality.
It would end up being a sparse field with LMP2s from gentlemen collectors and IMSA. And more whinging then ever before on Tenths about the "quality"
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Old 1 May 2020, 12:12 (Ref:3973949)   #91
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It’s ironic that my experience of motor racing fans at Daytona, Sebring and Laguna Seca has been universally friendly, warm, welcoming and enthusiastic, yet the threads discussing US racing on this forum are among the most aggressive, argumentative and negative.
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Old 3 May 2020, 06:18 (Ref:3974206)   #92
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It’s ironic that my experience of motor racing fans at Daytona, Sebring and Laguna Seca has been universally friendly, warm, welcoming and enthusiastic, yet the threads discussing US racing on this forum are among the most aggressive, argumentative and negative.

I’ve also found American events (old PWC included) to be far more fan inclusive than European events. Far more open and welcoming for sure
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Old 7 May 2020, 01:01 (Ref:3974835)   #93
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Some DPI/LMDH/LMP Hypercar regs got released today. Main ones being approx 650-700bhp engine power (no word on hybrids) and a minimum weight of 1030kgs across all variations of the class.
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Old 7 May 2020, 01:49 (Ref:3974839)   #94
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Some DPI/LMDH/LMP Hypercar regs got released today. Main ones being approx 650-700bhp engine power (no word on hybrids) and a minimum weight of 1030kgs across all variations of the class.
'Link, by chance......?
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Old 7 May 2020, 05:02 (Ref:3974847)   #95
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https://racer.com/2020/05/06/first-t...ence-revealed/
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Old 7 May 2020, 15:09 (Ref:3974942)   #96
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Some DPI/LMDH/LMP Hypercar regs got released today. Main ones being approx 650-700bhp engine power (no word on hybrids) and a minimum weight of 1030kgs across all variations of the class.
All articles I've seen mention less power (650-670) and spec hybrid. It's linked to the rear axle, no 4wd systems.

Porsche already responded. From DDC "Porsche has already posted a positive comment, Fritz Enzinger stating: “ACO and IMSA have fulfilled our expectations. It’ll be possible to compete for overall victories in most important endurance series with one vehicle. We’re now getting underway with concept study commissioned by our board of directors”"
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Old 7 May 2020, 16:55 (Ref:3974970)   #97
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Still don't like the quasi spec chassis (LMP2 based) and I'd rather see teams be able to build their own cars from scratch and have the option of building a customer car to their specs.

Sadly, the car makers (outside of Toyota and Glickenhaus) are pushing for this, and they're getting their way. At least this will hopefully put more cars on the grid.

There's also questions on if Toyota's and Glickenhaus' cars will be eligible for IMSA.
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Old 7 May 2020, 17:55 (Ref:3974983)   #98
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I read Fritz Enzinger's quote as Hypercars are eligible for IMSA events. Though it hasn't explicitly been stated that Glickenhaus/Boutique/teams-one-might-not-classify-as-a-Mainstream-Manufacturer would be eligible.


The whole thing does feel a step in a direction of appealing to more entrants as opposed to fewer from my work from home chair.
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Old 7 May 2020, 20:28 (Ref:3975005)   #99
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I do hope that it's better than what LMP1 became and that it takes off more than DPI has.
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Old 7 May 2020, 21:49 (Ref:3975017)   #100
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I read Fritz Enzinger's quote as Hypercars are eligible for IMSA events. Though it hasn't explicitly been stated that Glickenhaus/Boutique/teams-one-might-not-classify-as-a-Mainstream-Manufacturer would be eligible.


The whole thing does feel a step in a direction of appealing to more entrants as opposed to fewer from my work from home chair.
Nowhere has IMSA stated that Hypercar can race in IMSA, not so far as I have read.
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