[Official] British Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 10 of 23

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I thought it was generally accpeted that it was the pursuing driver's responsibility to avoid contact in these situations, hence the stewards comment..

When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.

Thereby the stewards are saying that it was Hamilton's place to avoid contact, not Verstappen's.

I can accept that, hence my original 60:40 assessment which I still believe is correct. The key word here is 'predominantly'.

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Max had the much faster racing line, Lewis should have backed off

The only problem with that is that much the same could have been said about turn 1, but Max kept his foot in, almost entirely off the track to ensure that he maintained the lead. We can also say it about Monza. But there was no dramatic accident in those two instances. There's a need to be consistent and objective about these things.

[crmalcolm]

The incident - the stewards' decision was that the driver who was most to blame was Hamilton, and penalty awarded. The wording of their decision also confirmed that they felt Verstappen was also (in part) to blame.

The whole saga though has seen Horner go a long way down in my opinion, for the following reasons.

After Spain - Horner praised Max for sticking his nose up the inside of the corner, and making Hamilton back out to avoid a collision.
Then, after yesterday's incident he claimed that nobody should make a move up the inside of Copse. Yet in the sprint, Verstappen had done exactly that, with Hamilton backing out to avoid a collision.

Horner is perfectly happy when it his driver being 'aggressive' and forcing others to make avoiding actions, but he spits his dummy out when the roles are reversed.

Post-race, Max and Horner both criticised the celebrations, and accused Hamilton of lacking decorum. Hamilton asked (at least twice) how Max was; on both occasions he was informed that Max was ok and had got out of the car fine. It was only after the post-race celebrations that he was made aware of Max going to hospital. Max / Horner also seem to have short memories, where they have forgotten that Max was perfectly happy to celebrate on the podium while they knew Grosjean was in hospital having been in a fireball.

Finally - if true - I am reading reports that it was Horner who insisted Max went to hospital, despite having been given the all-clear from the circuit medical staff. If true, this can only be for them to pursue their narrative of trying to portray Hamilton as the villain. In a time when the country is recovering from a pandemic, and medical facilities have been stretched to breaking point, it is pretty poor form to abuse those facilities just to support your tantrum.

It seems that Red Bull are great at winning - but when things don't go their way, they are a pretty despicable bunch at the moment.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Max had the much faster racing line, Lewis should have backed off

But Lewis seems to think everyone should roll over and play dead like Bottas when he wants to overtake.

This was the 3rd Red Bull car he punted off in under 2 years

Lots of answers to questions I did not ask, and no answer to the question I did ask.

For what it is worth, I can fully see that there are 2 sides to this and I actually feel sorry for Max, and I think we were robbed of a good race. No real fan wants to see cars having massive high speed shunts. But I did think that this was inevitably going to happen at some point this season, and Max knew full well that Hamilton was on the inside.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The only problem with that is that much the same could have been said about turn 1, but Max kept his foot in, almost entirely off the track to ensure that he maintained the lead. We can also say it about Monza. But there was no dramatic accident in those two instances. There's a need to be consistent and objective about these things.

Is objectivity possible in these circumstances?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Is objectivity possible in these circumstances?

Yes, I think it is, but of all of the people involved, probably only 60:40.......

[Derwent]

I have always admired Lewis, ever since seeing him karting as a 12 year old but I like him less and less as a person now. His lack of concern for Max was a disgrace as was his flag waving while driving a lethal weapon.
He has become self entitled and now for the first time for a few years he has some real opposition he is felling challenged. You can see why he doesn't want George Russell as a team mate.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I can accept that, hence my original 60:40


The only problem with that is that much the same could have been said about turn 1, but Max kept his foot in, almost entirely off the track to ensure that he maintained the lead. We can also say it about Monza. But there was no dramatic accident in those two instances. There's a need to be consistent and objective about these things.

Abbey is not nearly as sharp as Stowe, you can't compare those

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Lots of answers to questions I did not ask, and no answer to the question I did ask.

For what it is worth, I can fully see that there are 2 sides to this and I actually feel sorry for Max, and I think we were robbed of a good race. No real fan wants to see cars having massive high speed shunts. But I did think that this was inevitably going to happen at some point this season, and Max knew full well that Hamilton was on the inside.

Lewis was not near the apex and schould have backed of

Max had the racing line wich is much faster and Lewis should have known that

Him actualy blaming Max after the race made me sick, he lost all my respect

[steve_r]

Fair enough. Turn in knowing full well that a car is alongside, and an accident is going to happen. You might win the arguments over the right and wrong afterwards, but that does not matter if your car is in pieces at the side of the track.

Max probably could have ceded the lead and still won the race.

Horner and Markos comments are disgraceful.

The other drivers quotes are quite interesting.
https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/983...appen-f1-clash

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Abbey is not nearly as sharp as Stowe, you can't compare those

Copse?

[Anyopenroad]

I’m quite happy to see drivers aggressively sticking their nose up the inside to bully an opponent off line. Verstappen does it, Senna did it, all the great drivers did it.

I am also quite happy to see drivers refusing to be bullied by aggressive attacks and taking the view that they would rather crash than be seen to back down. That was famously Senna’s attitude and we venerate him for it.

Hamilton tried to bully Verstappen off line yesterday. I salute him for that. Verstappen refused to be bullied and held his line. I salute him for that.

I thought this type of racing is what we wanted. Well, this type of racing between this type of drivers leads to this type of incident. It could just as easily have been Hamilton’s car damaged. Or neither. Or both. It’s a race, not a time trial.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Abbey is not nearly as sharp as Stowe, you can't compare those

I'm not comparing the corners at all, I'm comparing the aggressive nature of the driving and the determination to be in front.

Originally Posted by steve_r

The other drivers quotes are quite interesting.
https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/983...appen-f1-clash

Indeed so. Quite refreshing, in a way.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Derwent

I have always admired Lewis, ever since seeing him karting as a 12 year old but I like him less and less as a person now. His lack of concern for Max was a disgrace as was his flag waving while driving a lethal weapon.

Lewis checked repeatedly over the radio if Max was ok, and told he had got out of the car unaided.

Lewis was told after the race in the interview pen for the first time that Max had been taken to hospital, his demeanour soon changed and you could see the concern for max.

Disgrace...lethal weapon? grow up.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I’m quite happy to see drivers aggressively sticking their nose up the inside to bully an opponent off line. Verstappen does it, Senna did it, all the great drivers did it.

I am also quite happy to see drivers refusing to be bullied by aggressive attacks and taking the view that they would rather crash than be seen to back down. That was famously Senna’s attitude and we venerate him for it.

Hamilton tried to bully Verstappen off line yesterday. I salute him for that. Verstappen refused to be bullied and held his line. I salute him for that.

I thought this type of racing is what we wanted. Well, this type of racing between this type of drivers leads to this type of incident. It could just as easily have been Hamilton’s car damaged. Or neither. Or both. It’s a race, not a time trial.

Yup.

Max has 'bullied' Lewis off the track in 3 previous races and at least twice on the opening lap...banging wheels down the straight, sending it down the inside into the complex....

....Max drives aggresively thinking Lewis would play the long game as usual...Lewis decided not this time.

...Karuns analysis was very good on Sky, he noted that Max turned in a second time when he saw Lewis up the inside. Both drivers were at fault, neither wanted to yield.

Racing incident...and given the reaction from most drivers or ex drivers, they seem to say the same.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Lewis was not near the apex and schould have backed of

Max had the racing line wich is much faster and Lewis should have known that

Him actualy blaming Max after the race made me sick, he lost all my respect

As ever, location checks out.

I suspect if Lewis was on the outside and turned in, youd be blaming him still.

Karuns analysis on sky was spot on, i suggest you take a look at it.

Both drivers were to blame, but neither will accept it was their fault....thats why theyre in that position and were hiding behind keyboards.

Most drivers or ex drivers have seen it as a racing incident....

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The incident - the stewards' decision was that the driver who was most to blame was Hamilton, and penalty awarded. The wording of their decision also confirmed that they felt Verstappen was also (in part) to blame.

The whole saga though has seen Horner go a long way down in my opinion, for the following reasons.

After Spain - Horner praised Max for sticking his nose up the inside of the corner, and making Hamilton back out to avoid a collision.
Then, after yesterday's incident he claimed that nobody should make a move up the inside of Copse. Yet in the sprint, Verstappen had done exactly that, with Hamilton backing out to avoid a collision.

Horner is perfectly happy when it his driver being 'aggressive' and forcing others to make avoiding actions, but he spits his dummy out when the roles are reversed.

Post-race, Max and Horner both criticised the celebrations, and accused Hamilton of lacking decorum. Hamilton asked (at least twice) how Max was; on both occasions he was informed that Max was ok and had got out of the car fine. It was only after the post-race celebrations that he was made aware of Max going to hospital. Max / Horner also seem to have short memories, where they have forgotten that Max was perfectly happy to celebrate on the podium while they knew Grosjean was in hospital having been in a fireball.

Finally - if true - I am reading reports that it was Horner who insisted Max went to hospital, despite having been given the all-clear from the circuit medical staff. If true, this can only be for them to pursue their narrative of trying to portray Hamilton as the villain. In a time when the country is recovering from a pandemic, and medical facilities have been stretched to breaking point, it is pretty poor form to abuse those facilities just to support your tantrum.

It seems that Red Bull are great at winning - but when things don't go their way, they are a pretty despicable bunch at the moment.

I enjoyed watching this race (and a lot of the preamble) live as C4 were able to show it live (and it was too damned hot to sit outside in my garden!) I expected the race start to be exciting (as was the start of the sprint race on Saturday) as was edging my chair closer to the TV as the lap progressed. There was a lot (of what the commentators like to call ) 'elbows out' driving through the first few corners and then when Lewis out-dragged Max along the old start-finish straight and got alongside I nearly fell out of my chair with excitement! My next thought was "What an idiot, Max has turned into him and knocked his wheel off, serves him right!" Then I saw the severity of the accident, plus listened to MW & DC in commentary, who were both laying the blame on Lewis, so started to change my opinion. After watching the numerous replays and then by the re-start, finding that Lewis had a 10 second penalty, it decided that to me, that seemed fair. The incident wasn't all blamed on Lewis, and although I didn't so the calculation at the time, I'd agree that 60:40 was a fair split.
They are 2 top level racing drivers and really it was a racing incident (although with the severity of the impact, I'm relieved that Max wasn't hurt).
Christian Horner's continued repeated bleating about 'Lewis sticking a wheel in going into Copse not being the done thing' just got on my nerves. If either driver had backed off, contact wouldn't have happened, but it would have meant that whoever did so, would have lost the position.
With regard to Max going to hospital being Christian Horner's idea, I am prepared to give the the benefit of the doubt here, his driver had just suffered a huge impact, so maybe getting a second-opinion about his condition is understandable.
Mind you, as Renault know only too well, whinging about things and blaming someone else is something that Red Bull are very good at!
(Sorry about my disjointed reply, I started typing this about 3 hours ago but then got distracted. - Work can be a nuisance at times!)

[dsg]

Originally Posted by wnut

Stewards would agree with your summary:

The Stewards reviewed video and telemetry evidence. Cars 33 and 44 entered turn
9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside. Car 44 was on
a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside.
When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of
Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.

I think the stewards have it pretty spot on.

Carrying on from what some others have said the other part that doesn't sit well is that Lewis caused a red flag that allowed him the opportunity to fix his car which in turn allowed him to go on and win the race.

I know the incident isn't judged on the consequences but maybe it should be taken into consideration. Had Max been able to carry on then 10 seconds for Lewis was about right, but that incident, at that speed, at that corner was highly likely to be race ending.

Slightly off topic but I hope the idiots who racially abused Lewis can be identified and face some consequences. Lifetime bans from circuits/spectating or suchlike. Same as idiots are banned from footy matches if they have been identified as racially abusing players.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Him actualy blaming Max after the race made me sick, he lost all my respect

So I'm going to take the view of (current) F1 drivers on this:

'I think it’s a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other. Obviously, there was the space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex, but it’s also true that Max was quite aggressive on the outside.'

'That kind of thing happens, that’s racing. It can happen when you fight hard and you don’t give up.'

'Completely unintentional, but just the nature of the aero on these cars and you just have to allow a little more, but I’m certainly not going to sit here and judge and say he should have done that or that.'

'The accident itself I think is very difficult to judge.'

'It looked quite close, Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max. So, in a way, Lewis could not disappear from the inside line, it’s not that you can vanish. It was an unfortunate moment of the race, but nothing intentional or nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong in my opinion.'

How would Max's fans respond, if comments after the race were:

**Hypothetical**'Copse was mega. I mean Lewis, that was full Lewis Hamilton – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well,” said Wolff after the British GP. “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Max had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,'**Hypothetical**

Horner thinks it is right that other drivers 'get out of it', so he should expect the same of his own driver........

[Greem]

I think you should make it clear that the last italicised "quote" is in fact a rewording of a statement made by Horner after a previous race, referring to Verstappen "sticking a wheel in".

If someone were to quote that elsewhere, out of context, I imagine it would be petrol on a fire that's already well alight!

[Aysedasi]

Very much with Viva and crm on this.

(Just saying that avoids an awful lot of quoting ).

Bottom line is that it's done for me. I've had my say and I know that some agree (and I with them) and others don't. I'm just glad that I'm debating it here with sensible people and not with the keyboard warriors who have puked such a volume of total garbage on FB and Twitter and, far more importantly, that Max is OK.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Greem

I think you should make it clear that the last italicised "quote" is in fact a rewording of a statement made by Horner after a previous race, referring to Verstappen "sticking a wheel in".

If someone were to quote that elsewhere, out of context, I imagine it would be petrol on a fire that's already well alight!

Noted -

[chillibowl]

When did this whole court of law thing start?

I have a lawyer on retainer, do i need to seek their advice before posting on a forum now?

[Peter Mallett]

Nope.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

When did this whole court of law thing start?

I have a lawyer on retainer, do i need to seek their advice before posting on a forum now?

No. I think it only really started when discussion turned to considering the outcome of a collision rather than the driving that led to it when considering the penalty to be applied.

[S griffin]

Well that’s alright then. Personally I think there was eagerness from both drivers to be in the lead first lap. I think it was more Lewis’ fault, he had no reason to stick it down the inside there that early in the race and probably could have, maybe would have beaten him anyway, especially if his second stint is anything to go by. Maybe he’s starting to lose his touch and is letting things start to override his usual great judgement. Or maybe he has already had these flaws and they are starting to show more under pressure. But that’s just my theory, so who knows?